Is death natural?

[Technosoul]

If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening.

Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

[LogicaLunatic]

Quote by: Technosoul If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening. Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

I could say simply that death is natural because it exists. But then that would lead us into a conversation or debate about the word natural and it's many meanings which is not what this thread is about.

Death happens. That's very obvious but it has to be pointed out. The very fact that death happens is what drives us to not want death in the first* place. I don't know about you but the only reply I could make to an immortal being shouting, "I want to live," would be, "OMG STFU!"

So I say, the reason things come into existence with the urge to remain "alive" or "existing" is because they will, at some point, not exist.

And that leads us to the next question. But do you think we actually have a desire to live for an eternity? What is eternity? Well, eternity is all time from the moment you're born to the moment that there are no more moments. I would say, the desire is irrelevant. Whether we want to or not, we all do "live" for an eternity.

If the flapping of a butterfly's wings can do so much, what do we accomplish with every single tiny movement we make from the moment we're born to the moment we die? Even a child that lives for a single day has an enormous effect on the universe. Every little thing we do effects the universe. So, whether you "desire" it or not, you will have a huge effect on "eternity." It's up to you what kind of effect you have.

*Or second place, depending on how you answer the whole chicken/egg thingie.

[Jack]

why is everything born with the motive to survive

An illustration of how the fittest survive. Not having any concern for your own safety doesn't bode well for a long life. Those who survive the longest are the most motivated. They get to pass along their genes more than those who aren't watching their step.

Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

The concept of eternity predates both, and I suspect the desire to live for eternity does as well. Once humans could conceive of eternity, it only makes sense they'd wish to exist for that long, providing life was relatively good. To those for whom life totally sucks, I'm sure the very thought of living forever is a living hell of its own.

[Technosoul]

Most animals do not know about natural death ahead of time as advanced knowledge. (like humans). But they still do what ever their ability allows them to do to survive and to continue living. With some exceptions. If a cat is injured bad enough it will just find a place to hide and then wait for death to ocur. So the "will" to survive might depend somewhat on the circumstances that govern the "quality of life" being lived.

If it were not for the degenerating factors of old age most people would just keep on trucking without thought of dieing as something "expected" even if they have knowledge of that potential. Because living is more natural then dieing as far as actural consciousness goes. If we are not too old to drive we will still hook up the safty belt. However the younger we are the more risks we might take because in our mind we believe we got "lots of time" and death seems unlikely.

[Strange Dreamer]

I imagine you could argue that death is natural in one sense, that it is nescesarry for the each thing to eventually make way for something else in the finite space we call earth.
Also on a similar note. How would one thing consume the remains of something else if it never 'died' and began to break back down into it's core components?

Survival insticts are most likely there to ensure that the complex system that exsists doesn't colapse just because too many things just give up in a short amount of time, and quit living before reproducing.

Also I would say in concern to humans, and as speculated many times in SF stories. Without the relative imminence of Death on our minds, would we really strive nearly so vigorously on even the basic survival needs, let alone any significant social or technological effort?

On a personal note, and without getting into spiritual speculation, I honestly can't see spending unlimited years in this body.

[Osborn F Enready]

Techno said: If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening.

Because life and death are both absolute, and it is natural to fear that which we cannot observe, define or understand, especially when life and death are absolutes which to understate reality "directly affects" our lives.

Techno said: Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

Has Darwin ever postulated infinite life of individuals?

Have you read Darwin, and the Bible?

[5010]

Quote by: Technosoul If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening.

Death is programmed into your cells. According to the wiki on apoptosis:

Between 50 billion and 70 billion cells die each day due to apoptosis in the average human adult. For an average child between the ages of 8 to 14, approximately 20 billion to 30 billion cells die a day. In a year, this amounts to the proliferation and subsequent destruction of a mass of cells equal to an individual's body weight.

Also, death is a requirement for many species to survive. Consider carnivores, herbivores, omnivores. Their food requires the death of other creatures.

I interpret biblical death as a consequence of the fall of adam in the OT and a requirement for heaven in the NT.

Evolution is quickest when generations are short. Death makes evolution quicker by keeping room in the niche for new generations.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Techno Is death natural?

Define natural.

If you mean it in its literal sense, then yes death is natural; as is anything.

If you mean it, as so many people wrongly use it, to mean evolutionarily beneficial, then the answer once more is yes. If we didn't die, there would be rapid overpopulation and we'd run out of resources. We have the conflicting will to survive because it's also evolutionarily beneficial to do so; not because death is unnatural.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy If you mean it, as so many people wrongly use it, to mean evolutionarily beneficial, then the answer once more is yes. If we didn't die, there would be rapid overpopulation and we'd run out of resources. We have the conflicting will to survive because it's also evolutionarily beneficial to do so; not because death is unnatural.

Evolutionarily, it depends on perspective. From the perspective of an organism, it's not so natural, and yeah, it would aim for survival; some, especially humans, do embrace death, though, so to them it might be natural. From the perspective of an entire species, it's natural, because as Bacon Guy stated, it would prevent overpopulation while allowing the species to survive an optimal logistic plateau. And yeah, it's programmed, e.g. apoptosis and the loss of telomeres causing aging over many mitotic divisions.

Quote by: Technosoul Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

And based on the Bible and many other religious explanations, death is also natural since its a transition from this life to an afterlife in some other place, back to Earth in another form, etc.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Technosoul If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening.

Death is natural since, it does take place...no doubt about that! But the "motive to survive and to prevent death from happening" is not natural. It is some sort of information fed into minds of infants gradually first by parents and later by the society. Have you ever seen a six months old child crawling on fours, sometimes touching burning candle, somtimes falling down a stair case with no fear of getting injured or dieing. As time passes, it picks up fear of injury or death later from the society. Thus comes in, the motive to survive and preventing death for an individual.

Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

It is not the question of desire to live for eternity since, it actually lives in eternity only. I would add further, it is definitly natural to live in eternity. This, I am saying based on reincarnation being true, believing after listening personally a lady of our city, remembering not one but two of her past births!!!!

[Gargoyle]

Quote by: Technosoul If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening. Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

To die is to live and to live is to die. We live forever in the hearts of ohters,our memories will live on forever if we make an impact in this world.When we die we die and that is the end just like when we squash a cockerroaches.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Technosoul If death is natural then why is everything born with the motive to survive and to prevent death from happening. Is the desire to live for an eternity acturally the most natural objective of life based both on the theory of Darwin and the Bible?

To live forever is a bigger picture then just a lifetime we live.... We are born in a physical vessel to experience life..... like a car... our bodies will of course wear out and no longer be useful over time.

What do we do to fight this? Procreation... passing of our genes to the next generation. I am 50% my father and 50% my mother..... they were the same thing with their parents.... so we all have a little bit of everyone in our families inside us. With this concept, most usually try and make the world a better place so their offspring can live better lives, they try and teach them everything they knew.... to prepare them to live as long as they can to continue the cycle.

The Bible isn't 100% right..... Darwin isn't 100% right either..... neither am I.....

The other factor to put into the calculation is the actual definition of what Death really is. Do we just die and no longer exist anywhere on any plain of existance? Is this life we are living just like a butterfly in it's catapillar state? Is there more after this life?

What would you considder being the final end of existance? Why do you feel death counters the goal of living for eternity for that person?

The only time you actually cease to exist in this lifetime is when everybody forgets who you were and what you done..... Hostory books will show this.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Praxius The other factor to put into the calculation is the actual definition of what Death really is. Do we just die and no longer exist anywhere on any plain of existance? Is this life we are living just like a butterfly in it's catapillar state? Is there more after this life? What would you considder being the final end of existance? Why do you feel death counters the goal of living for eternity for that person? The only time you actually cease to exist in this lifetime is when everybody forgets who you were and what you done..... Hostory books will show this.

Questions after questions but no answers in the end!!

What history books tell us is with respect to physical state of person (Car as you put it). Question remains: Are you different than car??? With the perishing of car does your existence goes off (you not in terms of chromosoms as put by you, but what you and others call YOU as YOU, in your life time)???. Many times I said it told your body, your mind, your soul....and the like, clearly shows YOU are something different and unexplanable like another God. I put that YOU as individualistic ego of personified consciousness!!!!!!!

You have avioded the answer but, I have provided it partly in my last few posts and partly above that we exist eternally based on my feeling, capability of corelating the cases of people describing their past lives memories and my own father's vivid message through my dream on his 18th day of death that he existed even without body. One more thing, which makes my belief existence after bodily death sure is that I never get 100% confident feeling that someday I would seize to exist, although, I watch eveybody dieing and seizing to exist physically. This is wonder of wonders!!!!! Logically, I can calculate that I would seize to bodily exist say around age of 89-90 years but, confident feeling is that I would exist eternally even without body in metaphysical state. This my confidence is itself a proof for that. I think such feeling must be within the minds of all types of living and nonliving world!!!!!

[Praxius]

Quote by: Kuldeep Questions after questions but no answers in the end!!

Those questions were ment to be answered so I can better understand which angle you are coming from in this topic..... I've got answers for you, but it depends on what answers you are direclty looking for. What part of the big picture you want first, so to speak.

What history books tell us is with respect to physical state of person (Car as you put it). Question remains: Are you different than car??? With the perishing of car does your existence goes off (you not in terms of chromosoms as put by you, but what you and others call YOU as YOU, in your life time)???. Many times I said it told your body, your mind, your soul....and the like, clearly shows YOU are something different and unexplanable like another God. I put that YOU as individualistic ego of personified consciousness!!!!!!!

Not anymore different then the warning light on your car telling you something is wrong with the engine, or your gas is low, etc..... we are told we are hungry, when we are sick and so on.....

At this point in our lifetimes, we are one of the big parts that keep the car going..... we decide where it goes, for how long and how fast. The car has an internal system, a heart and fuel to keep it going.... but we are the brain for now.

When a car is finally toasted, it gets most of it's parts recycled/reused, or someone restores it...... either way, the life of the car does to some degree continue on.

You have avioded the answer but, I have provided it partly in my last few posts and partly above that we exist eternally based on my feeling, capability of corelating the cases of people describing their past lives memories and my own father's vivid message through my dream on his 18th day of death that he existed even without body. One more thing, which makes my belief existence after bodily death sure is that I never get 100% confident feeling that someday I would seize to exist, although, I watch eveybody dieing and seizing to exist physically. This is wonder of wonders!!!!! Logically, I can calculate that I would seize to bodily exist say around age of 89-90 years but, confident feeling is that I would exist eternally even without body in metaphysical state. This my confidence is itself a proof for that. I think such feeling must be within the minds of all types of living and nonliving world!!!!!

Well you're on the track as I.... but I didn't avoid your question.... I just need to know your answers to the above, so I can explain as best I can my point of view for you to understand.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Praxius Those questions were ment to be answered so I can better understand which angle you are coming from in this topic..... I've got answers for you, but it depends on what answers you are direclty looking for. What part of the big picture you want first, so to speak.

You are my teacher. You know better where to start. You have your own questions set! I have aleady opend out what I had in my belly. Now it your turn to say and my turn to listen!

Not anymore different then the warning light on your car telling you something is wrong with the engine, or your gas is low, etc..... we are told we are hungry, when we are sick and so on..... At this point in our lifetimes, we are one of the big parts that keep the car going..... we decide where it goes, for how long and how fast. The car has an internal system, a heart and fuel to keep it going.... but we are the brain for now.

How can you be the brain? People refer that as your brain, showing you are different than brain!!!!

Then, what about origin of thoughts, emotions and feeling of existence etc., in that brain ? Where is the origin of force behind the neurons in forming an electrical pulse??

When a car is finally toasted, it gets most of it's parts recycled/reused, or someone restores it...... either way, the life of the car does to some degree continue on.

The problem is that you look at human being as physical manifestation only as in the case of the mechanical Car. Human is something more than pure physical stuff...A bit of metaphysical is also present!!!

Well you're on the track as I.... but I didn't avoid your question.... I just need to know your answers to the above, so I can explain as best I can my point of view for you to understand.

My answer is well there in my previous post. I would summarise for you again that my existence is eternal and does not vanish with vanishing of my body. Hint to that I got from the dream, in which I saw my father on 18th day of his death and his correct narration of details of incidences, which actually took place during 13 days after his death.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Kuldeep How can you be the brain? People refer that as your brain, showing you are different than brain!!!! Then, what about origin of thoughts, emotions and feeling of existence etc., in that brain ? Where is the origin of force behind the neurons in forming an electrical pulse?? The problem is that you look at human being as physical manifestation only as in the case of the mechanical Car. Human is something more than pure physical stuff...A bit of metaphysical is also present!!!

Well I am only relating our human bodies as a car.... I haven't really touched base with our actual existance of thought just yet.

The body is like a car, because it protects us inside, it helps us get to one point to the next, much like out bodies.... the car needs fuel and maintenence to keep going.... so do we.

Basically when we get into the car, the human being the the brain of the car.... when that car is no more.... we buy another car.

Our bodies are mainly an extension of our minds, such as the car is an extension of the body. I'm just using a reference that's a step off to get to the point quicker......

My answer is well there in my previous post. I would summarise for you again that my existence is eternal and does not vanish with vanishing of my body. Hint to that I got from the dream, in which I saw my father on 18th day of his death and his correct narration of details of incidences, which actually took place during 13 days after his death.

Since it takes a long time to explain it all.... I'll link you to a thread where I was asked about time, existance and death:

Praxius and Captain Chaos, on peak experiences and metaphysics

This is a lot of info.... so take you time.

Afterlife

^ This is the original thread that the above was spun off of.... I think it covers more detail of what you are looking for. (See 2nd page for total explination)

[Jubloz]

It's already been touched on, but an organism that has no desire continuing to live will, given probability, be killed or even kill itself. Even if the organism that lacks a drive to live reaches reproductive age and has offspring, it's unlikely that the offspring will live if they inherit the tendency to lack the drive to survive. Although I do not endorse suicide in most circumstances, I have always had a certain level of respect for, and intrigue in, those who willfully kill themselves; it seems to defy our very nature, our own genetic code. Please don't overplay that sentence, I'm not saying that a suicide isn't tragic, just that I find it interesting that some people can defy the very desire to conform (understandably) to the primal need to keep going.

The idea of infinity probably does not occur in most, and likely all, animals, with the exception of humans. The idea of immortality is largely correlated with the concept of infinity, so it would follow that the idea of living forever is also purely human. Although, I believe, that's even a cultural thing; while I'm fairly certain that most cultures have a concept of immortality (i.e. gods/goddesses that live eternally), I don't think it's a universal.

So, is death natural? I would tend to think so and that, given you use the same definition of natural, the desire to live forever is not natural. It's a conceptual legacy passed down through generations, rather than a part of our genetic code. It is only 'natural' in that it goes hand in hand with our desire to survive and our fear of the inevitable.

All that being said, I personally don't find eternal life appealing, but a few hundreds years more wouldn't hurt; life is too short.

[fencer]

According to most Biology courses, at some point in life there must be death. Death is natural because everything cycles. Whether or not things continue living in another form is different.

[Kuldeep]

@Julboz
When you to 400th year last day, or time of death, you woulsd repeat "life is too short". Death is natural phenomina. But death is to body not to the self. Self l;ives eternally and changes body after body!!!

[Jubloz]

Quote by: Kuldeep @Julboz When you to 400th year last day, or time of death, you woulsd repeat "life is too short". Death is natural phenomina. But death is to body not to the self. Self l;ives eternally and changes body after body!!!

Perhaps 1000 years wouldn't be enough, perhaps 10,000 wouldn't be enough, but I imagine I would at some point grow both mentally and physically fatigued of my existence and would welcome death. Death, unfortunately, does seem to me to be the destruction of an individual; the end of a life that can never again exist. I won't deny that I am extraordinarily skeptical of an afterlife or some sort of reincarnation, but I certainly can't prove that with the few years of life that I have.

On a more philosophical note, it would seem that the level to which you grew as an individual would be interesting with a longer life span. I've met children that see the world through an adult's eyes, yet I have met middle aged men no wiser than a young teen. Given 1,000 years, could the fools gain some ground, or are some people perpetually bound by their own limits into ignorance and idiocy? And, if so, what about those who break away from their bindings and seem to see the world around them in clarity? Given ten times the life span, how much more could they achieve? What level of depth perception could they aspire to?