Is this 'splitting hairs'?? or just good sense?

[Scoobydoo]

Bit of background, tehn my question.
I have a friend, Sally. For the past 3 yrs, our daughters both belonged to the same club. Every fall you get a roster for that year, good from Sept-June. Over the summer if you rejoin, you then get the new roster in Sept. So, we were members with her there, and no problems. WE had to quit around mid year due to another time constraint. Recently I looked for my roster, to contact a few friends and an acquantaince who I'd met but couldnt think of her last name. I looked for my roster and I know it's in my home somewhere, but is probably adrift in a stack of papers, or fell behind a cabinet, or some such t hing. I casually called my friend, Sally, and said 'hey, can I borrow your roster to make a copy? I cant find mine' without barely a second thought. My 'friend' said without missing a beat, "oh, I can't do that...since you quit" ?? Huh?? I was at a loss, since she knows full well, and I mentioned it to be sure she knew, that I ALREADY have the same exact roster as she does, I ws given copy just like her, and misplaced it. It's not as if I'm a stranger asking to see it. She claimed that bc I'm not a member now, (or my daughter isn't) that I can't see her roster.

I believe in rules and law, but also a little bit of reason and common sense. Is this splitting hairs, for her to be so pedantic about it? Again, so there's no confusion, I was given the same copy as she was in Sept, and have it (somewhere) i8n my house, but just couldnt find it presently. Here's my thoughts, please chime in with your input..
**If i find said roster tomorrow and use it, I am not breaking any rule, therfore, I dont follow her logic that it's somehow 'breaking a rule' to let me borrow or look at her copy...

*If I had not been a member for a couple yrs and then asked to see this years roster, I could maybe see her hesitance. But give me a break, I was a member this year and misplaced my copy. I can't see how she would conclude this is somehow some rule that would be broken.

THe roster in and of itself isnt really so much a problem, I plan to look and am sure I will find it, or can jsut borrow another lady's copy. My debate is this overly meticulous hair splitting? I guess I feel if ever there was a case of looking for a hair and t hen splitting it, this is it.

[ZNFYRH]

I hate to say it, but I think your friend did the right thing.

You really aren't a part of the group any more, and it's not her fault you lost your roster.

That roster is given to members only for a reason, I'm sure. And while much of the information is probably available in the white pages, it's a question of responsibility and need-to-know.

I'm sorry if this sounds rude... I'm just being blunt... but you weren't responsible and you no longer have a need-to-know.

[Scoobydoo]

well that's what I am wanting is honest input. For the life of me though, I cannot seem to follow that logic-- again, I was given same roster she was and it is mine to 'legally' use for duration of club year. If I find roster in my drawer and use it, which is fine to do, (I am even sent emails from time to time with various general club announcements, things like BBQ, or movie day) then how would that be 'illegal' for me to see hers. In other words, how would it be illegal (by any rule) to allow me to see what has been rightfully givne me to use until summer?

not trying to make you change *your* mind here, just trying to see how that follows along. If we dont rejoin, and 2 yrs from now I ask her to see that current roster, I could see how thats ot allowed. But to see what I already have (and am alllowed to use)?

I guess also I just was never one to go blindly by rules if there is some basic common sense reason, such as a man runs a stop sign bc his wife is in labor- technically that IS breaking a rule, or law, but I think any good cop would apply reason, and context to that rule. Without reason, rules can become nonsensical in some cases.

I guess I felt there was something passive agressive in what she did, kind of a 'well YOU didnt stay in club with us, so hmph! can't see the roster' type of thing. Maybe it's NOT that, it could be she just feels she must split rules down to the finest hairs, I would have thought since we've been good members in that club several years until a few months ago, and we are friends, also would make me think 'what's the big deal?"

[ZNFYRH]

Maybe she also doesn't like you as much as you thought?

I think your concern stems from the fact that you feel slighted and don't understand why.

Maybe that's one of the reasons.

[Scoobydoo]

I say 'friend' but there is something there that is not the way I would consider a friend to act-- I think part of it is the super formal way of handling this, rather than just saying 'oh yea, sure no problem, I'll make a copy for you...' I guess me and her are very different, and there is some jab there she was getting in. I am a loyal friend and although I wouldnt break any rule for a friend, if I knew she already had a copy and misplaced it I would be happy to make a copy for her. Grrrr

On a seperate level I am kind of interested in how others see it as either being some technical violation of rules, or just being ridiculous

[Osborn F Enready]

As with all things, I think it comes down to values and ideals, but especially liability in this case.

There is a huge issue of privacy rights now, so I would tend to agree with your friend in erring in caution to her advantage regarding legal liability for that information.

You seem to recognize you are asking a favor of that friend, so I would think courtesy and respect, if it is mutual, would deem understanding of the option to say no, is in order and most likely expected by your friend.

[5010]

I don't think it's a legal problem but a social one. Even though the lender cannot control the usage by the borrower, they can suffer social consequences if the borrower using the info annoys anyone in the club. You know how society can be: rumors, gossip, etc.

It is not necessarily because the borrower is under suspicion by what the lender knows about them. It could be that the lender has been burned in the past, or has witness or heard gossip about someone getting burned.

[Scoobydoo]

This is really interesting to me, just from a debate standpoint. As I said the roster itself isnt the big deal bc after I finish my coffee and buckle down and look for it, I'm sure I will find it. If not, another friend of mine said it's no problem to borrow hers, but I todl her I would look first.

From a debating standpoing, though, it is something I have not been able to follow the logic with the 'breach of privacy' reason, since, as I said I was given same exact roster as hers, it's mine anyways to use as I please for duration of club year, and therfore no privacy is being breached. I will admit I am not one to always follow rules, not that I'm some lawbreaker type, I follow rules 90% of the time, and expect others also, but I am more of the liberal reason with rules mindset. If I can't make a rule make sense, then to me that says 'time to apply reason, or context'.
If we dont end up rejoining, and in 2 yrs I ask to see the new roster for 2009, of course I could understand that would be a no-no. But to ask to see the same copy i have, but misplaced?
I havent really heard good reasoning behind answers, just a 'privacy' concern, or liability.
However, again it begs the question, if its' mine anyways to use, do with it what I will same as my friend, how is that breaking a rule.

I guess the seperate issue is 'is it even breaking a rule?" to which i can't see how that would be, and would have to answer 'no'.

IF somehow it technically b reaks a rule, I still say reason overrides technicality, as in the running the stop sign example.

[another day]

Oh please no way. That is a total power trip thing. She's being a bitch. People take things too seriously.

[Scoobydoo]

Another Day- Its hard to say for sure, but my hunch was there was some type of passive aggresiveness to her cheerful (a littl too cheerful??) refusal, but I think more than passive aggresive, maybe the power trip thing is more the jist of it.
If she had paused at least, or hesitated and needed to think about it, and sounded badly about not feelign she could do so, that would be one thing, but she was veyr quick and cheerful in saying 'no'.

I could liken it to an example of in the club, they sometimes have refreshments, and once a mom had to bring her toddler along to drop off older child. Toddler was hungry and there were plenty of extra snacks, so the other mom said 'oh here, take a couple of these for him..' technically theyr'e just for the club kids, I suppose I could have said 'hey! But the RULES say....' but gimme a break, a little bit of reason goes a long way. I totally understand and appreciate privacy concerns, but this is not the FBI for pete sake, and I already have the dumb roster in my posession. Another question, ...if I find mine and use it, is that 'illegal'??

[Osborn F Enready]

Scoobydoo said: From a debating standpoing, though, it is something I have not been able to follow the logic with the 'breach of privacy' reason, since, as I said I was given same exact roster as hers, it's mine anyways to use as I please for duration of club year, and therfore no privacy is being breached.

What if your copy is not simply misplaced, but fell into hands with someone who was stalking a person whose information is on that list?
What if the replacement for your list is attained by same said stalker?
Your list missing would make you suspect, and your friend making you a copy would make her a possible complicit person in the act, a possible complicit cover for your act, (assuming you were suspect) and there are many ways this "could" become a problem, but most likely won't.

I think it the core issue is why put this choice on a friend, to help you or not, when you can solve it yourself by your own ability? Perhaps your friend thinks you are being lazy and didn't want to take time from her day to condone, sanction or approve of your laziness? There are a multitude of reasons to be considered, but most are value based, idealogical or ethic based, as well as legal liability based.

Scoobydoo said: I will admit I am not one to always follow rules, not that I'm some lawbreaker type, I follow rules 90% of the time, and expect others also, but I am more of the liberal reason with rules mindset. If I can't make a rule make sense, then to me that says 'time to apply reason, or context'. If we dont end up rejoining, and in 2 yrs I ask to see the new roster for 2009, of course I could understand that would be a no-no. But to ask to see the same copy i have, but misplaced?

I guess I question why you asked the friend, and not the person or people in charge of the roster?

Scoobydoo said: I havent really heard good reasoning behind answers, just a 'privacy' concern, or liability.

Whether or not you think they are good answers, they are valid answers.

Scoobydoo said: However, again it begs the question, if its' mine anyways to use, do with it what I will same as my friend, how is that breaking a rule.

You recited the rules, so I only know what you cited. Regardless, one was given to you, you lost it, that is your responsibility. Asking a friend to copy it "for you" is a favor, and request, both of which can be denied.

Scoobydoo said: I guess the seperate issue is 'is it even breaking a rule?" to which i can't see how that would be, and would have to answer 'no'. IF somehow it technically b reaks a rule, I still say reason overrides technicality, as in the running the stop sign example.

Reason always overrides technicality, but shouldn't reason be fully explored before accepting it?

[Scoobydoo]

Osborne,

Are you serious? I am not sure if your answer about the whole stalker scenario is serious,or humor, it borders on the ridiculous.Not that stalking itself is humorous, so dont even try to go there..I mean tryign to raise that as some type of real rationale, is, in the context of this situation

That is just an 'end run' around real common sense..and you could apply the stalker what if question to almost anything, although again, common sense has to prevail.

If I find my copy, or if I already have it and call up a few people for a birthday party, have I done something illegal? I havent heard any answers to that, just curious...

[Slevin57]

It's just a roster.. Are they like clad in gold or something?

They can't possibly be that coveted of items.

[Scoobydoo]

nope, just a roster for a club, not the FBI list, not a plan for world peace, so the roster itself, isnt the issue here, I have already replaced it. The issue was I was curious how she would view that as some technical violation of a rule, I felt it was splitting hairs down to the finest possible last nth degree.

and, yea, it's no big deal, I mean she can feel it's a big deal and I did not pressure her at all, once she said no, I moved on, but for her to have let me look at the list is truly not any type of wrong or illegal thing, someone above nailed it I think, it's a power trip for her to deny that...downright weird too. Friends I normally have and how I am, is friends help each other out within reason, this lady is like miss microbiologist of formality of rules, weird

[Osborn F Enready]

ScoobyDoo said: Are you serious? I am not sure if your answer about the whole stalker scenario is serious,or humor, it borders on the ridiculous.Not that stalking itself is humorous, so dont even try to go there..I mean tryign to raise that as some type of real rationale, is, in the context of this situation

People who are victims never think about being a victim. That is often why they are victims. I thought you were looking for honest, possible reasons about why, or if what you asked was wrong or acceptable or what your friend did was acceptable or not.

Have I said something to offend you?

ScoobyDoo said: That is just an 'end run' around real common sense..and you could apply the stalker what if question to almost anything, although again, common sense has to prevail.

Common sense is recognizing that everyone has a potential to be a victim, and to dismiss it based on "probability" is a little irresponsible in my opinion. While I not only clarified it wasn't likely, I also listed other potential reasons. I am not passing judgement, I am simply adding input from my perspective in a thread I found interesting.

ScoobyDoo said: If I find my copy, or if I already have it and call up a few people for a birthday party, have I done something illegal? I havent heard any answers to that, just curious...

I think it should be obvious that if you had been issued a list, you are expected to be able to access the information, so I don't see why that would be an issue.

The issue from a liabilty standpoint would be the "loss" of the list, and the addition of a copy of another list.

May I ask, would you be upset if someone lost a list with your personal information on it, and the person who obtained it (by whatever means) ends up using that personal information to negatively affect your life or property, would you be upset? Would you seek a legal claim if someone in your family was injured, or your property damaged over a "given" monetary amount?

Do you consider those valid questions?

What information is on the list?

[Scoobydoo]

yes, but I didnt lose it per se, it was in my house.
** EVEN if list was lost (which it wasnt but for argument sake) and picked up by someone, or not, it was just plain lost...now, how does Sally Sue Brown letting me see her copy make that better, or worse? I guess I dont see the relevance. If any member loses their list, and it (again stalker example here you posed) would it be breaking a rule for them to get a replacement of t heir list?

[Scoobydoo]

sorry, forgot to add this on-

you wrote above that of course since I was given a list, I am allowed to access the information.

that is my whole point.

Losing the list doesnt take away that 'right', to access the information, it is mine, until end of club year. Obtaining a copy of list is teh *same* copy I misplaced, it is not a new, or updated list. This applies to anyone there, if they lose their list they can get a copy of it. I sound like a broken record, but if I try to get a copy of a roster for next year and we never rejoined, that would be different because I am not allowed to access that info.

[Osborn F Enready]

ScoobyDoo said: Losing the list doesnt take away that 'right', to access the information, it is mine, until end of club year. Obtaining a copy of list is teh *same* copy I misplaced, it is not a new, or updated list. This applies to anyone there, if they lose their list they can get a copy of it. I sound like a broken record, but if I try to get a copy of a roster for next year and we never rejoined, that would be different because I am not allowed to access that info.

I fully agree Scooby, I was just pointing out my reasons for why someone would deny that request, at least, possible reasons.

I am not taking sides here, simply providing possible reasons.

[Scoobydoo]

I know (you werent taking sides, since you dont know either of us,) i think it mostly boils down to a power trip, or being passive aggresive, unless she honestly believes shes commiting some grave sin by doing so, and I have trouble believing that. So, now I know more how she is, I will keep an arm's length from her. I have trouble trusting people like that, who seem to have some ulterior motive about things

i doubt anyone is interested in this, i'm just adding it bc I think it shows she does have some type of weird thing agaisnt people who dont stay in her club. She asked my daughter about her new school for fall, and she told her, excited about it, Her response was a cool "hmm..I dont know about that..sounds like a real drag.." I mean, how many parents would respond to a child in that manner about their school, she mostly has acted a bit off like this since we had to drop out.

[Osborn F Enready]

Well, people come in all variety, nothing suprises me anymore.