Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

The Decider · Apr 21, 2007, 11:24 pm

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Quote by: Scribbler1

I can't address what was said by others, but the basic right of freedom of speech is a no-brainer.

Well, suggesting police beatings of these Westboro punks would appear to violate the First Amendment, among other constitutional provisions. It may not be such a "no-brainer" after all, especially since few have repudiated that suggestion. I was sure that with all the constitution experts at this site, who regularly quote the 1st and 2nd amendments, that somebody would have defended the Westboro crew despite their disgusting messages. The constitution protects every law-abiding citizen, or no one at all.

Scribbler1 · Apr 21, 2007, 11:33 pm

Here's a thought. Why not direct your comments to the people who said those things. I'm not going to argue about what other people on this forum say or don't say.

gw120 · Apr 22, 2007, 01:06 am

It sucks monkey balls that these ass holes are doing this again. But they still should have the right to do it. They just shouldn't choose to evoke that right. Cause if you stop these guys protesting next you're going to have to stop every protest that offends people, which is pretty much all of 'em. But the SECOND they pick up a rock, tote a gun, or threaten anyone, cops better do their job, beating people up.

Epistemologist · Apr 22, 2007, 11:52 am

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Quote by: Isherwood

That's when I hope Phelps' brain explodes.

What brain?

Duke1985 · Apr 22, 2007, 12:40 pm

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"The evidence is they were not Christian. God does not do that to his servants," a church spokesperson told CBS news.

So wait, does Phelps think that true Christians are immune to bullets? For God wouldn't let true Christians be hit by bullets?

**Jack** · Apr 22, 2007, 12:45 pm

There's a really simple test for that theory. I wonder if Phelps himself would volunteer to test the theory?

Osborn F Enready · Apr 24, 2007, 03:27 am

I would volunteer to be the trigger man, should phelps EVER want to arrange such an event......

No charge even....

The Dunedan · Apr 24, 2007, 07:48 am

Heck, I have queer family members. If duelling were still legal, you might have to wait in line, Os...something about the sight of Freddy-boy's face seen down the barrel of a proper duelling pistol, or the blade of a sabre, just makes me feel all warm and tingly inside.

For the record; yes, Phelps has the right to say whatever he likes. He also has the right to reap the consequences, which in a civilized society would be exacted shortly after dawn at an agreed-upon place and in the presence of witnesses, Seconds, and a physician.

Praxius · Apr 24, 2007, 11:03 am

Whether or not these guys think they're true christians or not, they should have a little respect for the other religions and other factions of christianity that are out there.... their ways are not anymore the right way over another...... so why the hell do they feel they get the right to dink around with the funerals of those who died?

These are the people who give other Christians a bad name.... they're no better then Muslim Extremists and how they screw the rep of for other Muslims.

These people are the worst kind of Christians because they don't hold true to any of the real values that Christians live.... they're stuck back in their bible banging witch hunting era.... only instead of witches, they hunt gay people.... and anybody they deem isn't the same as them.... Christianity was not a religion made by force..... you were not suppose to force other's to believe what you believe, and you are not suppose to critisize other religions and their beliefs..... These guys are closer to going to hell then any other christian sect just on how they force their religion and beliefs alone.

All I know is if these tools came to a funeral I was attending.... there'd be a few extra funerals to come...... there's no excuse to disrespect those who have died, or ruin the last moments you see of the person you care about, prior to them being buried.

Stupid F'ing religions and their fanatics.... and people wonder why they're hated so much.

Rinoa · Apr 26, 2007, 07:19 pm

Quote:

Quote by: InTheFlesh?

The usually heavy fisted approach to picketing protesters the police adopt will only enrage the conservative christian right, who cares about tree hugging lefties like those eco nuts? but start beating up christians and you enrage a lot of people.

I am sure i have heard something about keeping God and state seperate in America... but all the God Bless Americas spewing from the American President confuses this idea.

Even the president was disagreeing with these people, he had them banned from a number of cemeteries...
Also, I am from the conservative christian right, and my parents are as well(to a much more extreme extent.) But my entire family understands that there is a time and a place, and phelps people are violating that principle by desecrating peoples last moments with their loved ones. So as much as I disagree with physical maltreatment of those who haven't physically maltreated others...I wouldn't say a damn thing if I saw one of those ladies being arrested with a little 'unnecessary force'. In fact, I kinda hope a mourner punches one of the biddies in the face.

He has the right to not like the life choices of others. Hell, I don't really like that those choices are made. But they are still people who deserve respect, and as long they aren't having a little 'fun' on his front porch he needs to leave them and their choices alone.

Apeman81 · Apr 26, 2007, 09:31 pm

Why does anyone pay any attention to this garbage?

We should ignore quacks. They, like the KKK, have the right to espouse their lunacy. They deserve no press and only our derision

Chaossaber314 · Apr 26, 2007, 11:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

There is no "devil's advocate" position to take. They DO have the right of free speech. It's offensive and idiotic, but they have it. There's no discussion to be had on the matter.

And this is hardly a Libertarian position only.

I'm not sure this applies as freedom of speech anymore. I think it seems more consistent with harassment. Also, the use of a funeral is technically a psychological procedure for coping with loss and closure, etc. To interfere with this is to interfere with the families' attempt at seeking treatment.

If this wasn't harassment they shouldn't have a problem protesting elsewhere. I wouldn't have a problem with them and would be the first to say that I don't agree with them but I support their right to free speech if they were pulling a Neo-nazi and having a march somewhere but this is different. The fact that they choose funerals to do it shows they're not interested in getting out a message. They're interested in hurting people when they're at their weakest.

Scribbler1 · Apr 26, 2007, 11:17 pm

I see your point, and on a gut level I agree. However, as long as they abide by any legal restrictions placed upon them they can STILL say anything they want. The most offensive speech imaginable is PRECISELY why the right of speech is protected. If you start defining what KIND of speech is inoffensive, the game is over and the PC army has won. Nobody says ANYTHING because no matter what you say, it's likely to offend somebody.

And I agree with Apeman. This story has "legs" because we keep talking about it. It's fair game on a discussion forum, I think, but the media should ignore these assholes completely.
But then again, if the media ignored Phelps' Phanatical Phools we wouldn't know anything about it.

Chaossaber314 · Apr 27, 2007, 12:51 am

Quote:

I see your point, and on a gut level I agree. However, as long as they abide by any legal restrictions placed upon them they can STILL say anything they want. The most offensive speech imaginable is PRECISELY why the right of speech is protected. If you start defining what KIND of speech is inoffensive, the game is over and the PC army has won. Nobody says ANYTHING because no matter what you say, it's likely to offend somebody.

I'm not really arguing about what they should or should not be able to say, just where they should be able to say it. I think funerals should be off limits for any type of protest. I don't think there's any other event that I can think of off hand that I could say deserved such a restriction.

It is an interesting argument though. A true test of how far we should allow freedom of speech to go. I don't think I've heard of a more patently offensive display. It really sets the bar for this extreme.

**Jack** · Apr 27, 2007, 01:30 am

Just as we criticize moderate Muslims for their failure to be more aggressive in their denouncements of their radical, extremist brethren, I feel there's an obligation for moderate Christians to be more vocal in their criticism of their own lunatic-fringe element.

**Chris** · Apr 27, 2007, 01:56 am

I think its just more publicity stunts by a sorry church trying to put themselves in the spotlight.

And I still feel sorry for those poor kids who have no choice but to follow such idiots.

Slevin57 · Apr 27, 2007, 02:31 am

Well these people seem to have taken the "Why is God cruel to his followers", and flipped it around. They propose that God is not cruel to his followers, but punish's disbelievers. Quite the radical Christianism.

But, the old testament is full of examples of "God Fearing" people that are rubbed out by God or his followers.

gw120 · Apr 27, 2007, 05:21 pm

You know, I'd really like to know how Bin Laden feels about this. I think it'd be really interesting to see how he feels.

ZNFYRH · Apr 27, 2007, 06:03 pm

Bigots capitalizing on tragedy to increase their celebrity.

God bless America and the freedom of speech and assembly.

God bless the Patriot Riders and any armed parents.

God bless the "bereaved, distraught, and temporarily insane" defense.

Epistemologist · Apr 28, 2007, 02:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: gw120

You know, I'd really like to know how Bin Laden feels about this. I think it'd be really interesting to see how he feels.

Theoretically, I think he wouldn't support their actions because:

(1) They are Christian, and he's Muslim, and they're the enemy Americans, but these are all superficial obvious points. We can consider some things beyond this though.

(2) They aren't a faction that is desperately attempting to ensure the survival of their entire culture/way of life. That is, they clearly don't have to resort to violent means to continue to live as they are. They're simply protesting with posters, while fanning themselves on nice sunny day in the cool weather; they're doing this as a mere past time, they're recreation. While they're devoted church members, that isn't necessarily what defines them; it isn't what constitutes their very identity.

(3) They're simply protesting within the American system of quasi-freedom (or I would actually say pseudo-freedom, but that is a topic for an off-topic discussion) without seemingly true conviction. Indeed, they're doing it despite the extremely faux pas nature of the protests, but do they really care about their cause? Do they really care about the endgame? About Jesus? Or are they acting selfishly, merely securing their own fame and fortune? Are they preoccupied with only the means to the end, and not the end itself? I think so. There is so much insincerity in many of the societies that I've encountered in my life that I'm persuaded to conclude that even these protesters are insincere.

Now, one might say that he would theoretically support them because they're "extremists" as well. But extremist is a subjective term. To bin Laden, these protesters are in a completely different sphere, a completely different spectrum of consideration.

Apr 21, 2007, 11:33 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,832	Here's a thought. Why not direct your comments to the people who said those things. I'm not going to argue about what other people on this forum say or don't say. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Apr 22, 2007, 01:06 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
gw120 Stabbed By Satan Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 247	It sucks monkey balls that these ass holes are doing this again. But they still should have the right to do it. They just shouldn't choose to evoke that right. Cause if you stop these guys protesting next you're going to have to stop every protest that offends people, which is pretty much all of 'em. But the SECOND they pick up a rock, tote a gun, or threaten anyone, cops better do their job, beating people up. Economic Left/Right: -9.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.79 Reality is fantasy; Facts are perception.

Apr 22, 2007, 12:45 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 14,168	There's a really simple test for that theory. I wonder if Phelps himself would volunteer to test the theory? The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Apr 24, 2007, 03:27 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,877	I would volunteer to be the trigger man, should phelps EVER want to arrange such an event...... No charge even.... Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Apr 26, 2007, 11:17 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,832	I see your point, and on a gut level I agree. However, as long as they abide by any legal restrictions placed upon them they can STILL say anything they want. The most offensive speech imaginable is PRECISELY why the right of speech is protected. If you start defining what KIND of speech is inoffensive, the game is over and the PC army has won. Nobody says ANYTHING because no matter what you say, it's likely to offend somebody. And I agree with Apeman. This story has "legs" because we keep talking about it. It's fair game on a discussion forum, I think, but the media should ignore these assholes completely. But then again, if the media ignored Phelps' Phanatical Phools we wouldn't know anything about it. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Apr 24, 2007, 07:48 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
The Dunedan Hot Lava Posts: 925	Heck, I have queer family members. If duelling were still legal, you might have to wait in line, Os...something about the sight of Freddy-boy's face seen down the barrel of a proper duelling pistol, or the blade of a sabre, just makes me feel all warm and tingly inside. For the record; yes, Phelps has the right to say whatever he likes. He also has the right to reap the consequences, which in a civilized society would be exacted shortly after dawn at an agreed-upon place and in the presence of witnesses, Seconds, and a physician.

Apr 24, 2007, 11:03 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Praxius Mass'Debator Posts: 4,730	Whether or not these guys think they're true christians or not, they should have a little respect for the other religions and other factions of christianity that are out there.... their ways are not anymore the right way over another...... so why the hell do they feel they get the right to dink around with the funerals of those who died? These are the people who give other Christians a bad name.... they're no better then Muslim Extremists and how they screw the rep of for other Muslims. These people are the worst kind of Christians because they don't hold true to any of the real values that Christians live.... they're stuck back in their bible banging witch hunting era.... only instead of witches, they hunt gay people.... and anybody they deem isn't the same as them.... Christianity was not a religion made by force..... you were not suppose to force other's to believe what you believe, and you are not suppose to critisize other religions and their beliefs..... These guys are closer to going to hell then any other christian sect just on how they force their religion and beliefs alone. All I know is if these tools came to a funeral I was attending.... there'd be a few extra funerals to come...... there's no excuse to disrespect those who have died, or ruin the last moments you see of the person you care about, prior to them being buried. Stupid F'ing religions and their fanatics.... and people wonder why they're hated so much.

Apr 26, 2007, 09:31 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Apeman81 Hot Lava Posts: 1,332	Why does anyone pay any attention to this garbage? We should ignore quacks. They, like the KKK, have the right to espouse their lunacy. They deserve no press and only our derision

Apr 27, 2007, 01:30 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
Jack formerly Isherwood Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 14,168	Just as we criticize moderate Muslims for their failure to be more aggressive in their denouncements of their radical, extremist brethren, I feel there's an obligation for moderate Christians to be more vocal in their criticism of their own lunatic-fringe element. The Forum Rules Radical Atheist Heathen Queer Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be. (Ashleigh Brilliant)

Apr 27, 2007, 01:56 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
Chris Gamma-ray burst Location: Nashville Posts: 6,403	I think its just more publicity stunts by a sorry church trying to put themselves in the spotlight. And I still feel sorry for those poor kids who have no choice but to follow such idiots. I voted against the theocratic psychopaths Shared

Apr 27, 2007, 02:31 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
Slevin57 Igneous Magma Posts: 438	Well these people seem to have taken the "Why is God cruel to his followers", and flipped it around. They propose that God is not cruel to his followers, but punish's disbelievers. Quite the radical Christianism. But, the old testament is full of examples of "God Fearing" people that are rubbed out by God or his followers. -Chris "I guess we are the people our parents warned us about."

Apr 27, 2007, 05:21 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
gw120 Stabbed By Satan Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 247	You know, I'd really like to know how Bin Laden feels about this. I think it'd be really interesting to see how he feels. Economic Left/Right: -9.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.79 Reality is fantasy; Facts are perception.

Apr 27, 2007, 06:03 pm	#39 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Bigots capitalizing on tragedy to increase their celebrity. God bless America and the freedom of speech and assembly. God bless the Patriot Riders and any armed parents. God bless the "bereaved, distraught, and temporarily insane" defense.