Why do you care if people believe in God?

[Osborn F Enready]

Oberon said:
Do you believe your father is your father? How do you know? You WANT to believe....and if a paternity test showed he was not you may say "well, he's the only father I know"..that is a belief system.

But I don't want to confuse you with logic. Being a fucking nutter is in of itself quite different then being one with ones own beliefs ..thinking, feeling and trusting with a SANE and logical mind. Those who think that the universe around them along with their existence has to make sense on their level is a fucking fruitcake if you ask me. Aside from self indulgence, self important rhetoric there is no reason why you should have the capicity to expect to understand what is obviously over your head. That is why the dead never return to tell tales...you clearly wouldn't be able to handle it and mankind would cease to exist as it is.

I guess common sense just isn't so common with some.

I say:

I underlined the part in your post above I am mainly responding to.

I guess you just can't see the problem Oberon. Religious people tend to believe in avenues of "right and wrong" and try to make the laws reflect "their" moral lines in the sand. That is great, if you happen to be of that particular religion, but it is a violation of every other persons rights as free individuals.

Gay rights is a great example. Christians and Catholics as well as other religions people are ingrained to be appalled at the thought of homosexual relationships since their religion actually states that it is WRONG to engage in sexual acts with that of the same sex.(at least for men)

Heretics, were thought to be second class citizens, just because they DIDN'T accept their flavor of belief. Galileo being a fine example, of the men of science who were literally demonized by the Christian religions. They were also demonized by others in their respective villages just due to religious influence, and were "tried in a court of public opinion" before ever seeing a court of law.

They are being TAUGHT, to disrespect others, based on their beliefs.

(On a side note, it is interesting that the last statement is what makes so many Christians voice fault with Muslims.)

Religious people often tend to project their belief system on to others, in a manner of personal judgement. They feel they are "right" to judge other people, based on their own beliefs. This is when it becomes nearing a psychosis, because they do not understand why others don't embrace what they consider to be "obvious" or self relevant reasons to judge another, in a court of law. They have been indoctrinated into a way of belief that has classes, and leaders. Literally, an empire, where money is donated to figureheads, in order for gratuitious wishes from the high position holders. This is also a tax free empire, here in the United States, which also has its own legalized gambling. (gambling is also a sin according to some of them also, so figure that one out. :confused: )

I am not anti-religious.

I just feel that while it is ok to believe in a religion, there must also be a parallel of common sense, that recognizes those who believe differently, and can value the common rights of all men equally regardless of belief. It is strange that this is becoming a more rare trait in todays world of fear mongering, religiously outspoken political and religious community leaders. That last fact alone, leads me to look to the signs of history, when religious leaders gained power throughout past societies.

Thats why so many religious folks are being viewed as "nutters" as you say, these days.

[RickSp]

On the general topic of insults and idiocy, I recently discovered the "ignore list" button. Way kewl. I see when Purple Haze posts but don't have to be annoyed by his insane idiotic ranting.

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: Starboy Hey only a dishonest person could make this statement: You have no more evidence for thinking this than you do for claims about the after life that you reject. If you were honest with yourself you would admit this and would not make such claims. As if I have not? All I am doing is commenting on the scenery along the away. If you do not want comments made on your dishonesty then do not be dishonest. Or at least have the sense to just keep it to your self. Starboy

What are you on about? What am I being dishonest about? I said you choose your destiny and I choose mine....help me with this, show me where my dishonesty lies? Maybe that is MY commentary on the scenery from my house, right?

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: RickSp On the general topic of insults and idiocy, I recently discovered the "ignore list" button. Way kewl. I see when Purple Haze posts but don't have to be annoyed by his insane idiotic ranting.

If it is way cool, and you are using it, why then are you still thinking about me? Maybe I piss you off because I won't bow down to your screed, hmmmm?

[OberonDOtherseid]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Oberon said: Do you believe your father is your father? How do you know? You WANT to believe....and if a paternity test showed he was not you may say "well, he's the only father I know"..that is a belief system. But I don't want to confuse you with logic. Being a fucking nutter is in of itself quite different then being one with ones own beliefs ..thinking, feeling and trusting with a SANE and logical mind. Those who think that the universe around them along with their existence has to make sense on their level is a fucking fruitcake if you ask me. Aside from self indulgence, self important rhetoric there is no reason why you should have the capicity to expect to understand what is obviously over your head. That is why the dead never return to tell tales...you clearly wouldn't be able to handle it and mankind would cease to exist as it is. I guess common sense just isn't so common with some. I say: I underlined the part in your post above I am mainly responding to. I guess you just can't see the problem Oberon. Religious people tend to believe in avenues of "right and wrong" and try to make the laws reflect "their" moral lines in the sand. That is great, if you happen to be of that particular religion, but it is a violation of every other persons rights as free individuals. Gay rights is a great example. Christians and Catholics as well as other religions people are ingrained to be appalled at the thought of homosexual relationships since their religion actually states that it is WRONG to engage in sexual acts with that of the same sex.(at least for men) Heretics, were thought to be second class citizens, just because they DIDN'T accept their flavor of belief. Galileo being a fine example, of the men of science who were literally demonized by the Christian religions. They were also demonized by others in their respective villages just due to religious influence, and were "tried in a court of public opinion" before ever seeing a court of law. They are being TAUGHT, to disrespect others, based on their beliefs. (On a side note, it is interesting that the last statement is what makes so many Christians voice fault with Muslims.) Religious people often tend to project their belief system on to others, in a manner of personal judgement. They feel they are "right" to judge other people, based on their own beliefs. This is when it becomes nearing a psychosis, because they do not understand why others don't embrace what they consider to be "obvious" or self relevant reasons to judge another, in a court of law. They have been indoctrinated into a way of belief that has classes, and leaders. Literally, an empire, where money is donated to figureheads, in order for gratuitious wishes from the high position holders. This is also a tax free empire, here in the United States, which also has its own legalized gambling. (gambling is also a sin according to some of them also, so figure that one out. :confused: ) I am not anti-religious. I just feel that while it is ok to believe in a religion, there must also be a parallel of common sense, that recognizes those who believe differently, and can value the common rights of all men equally regardless of belief. It is strange that this is becoming a more rare trait in todays world of fear mongering, religiously outspoken political and religious community leaders. That last fact alone, leads me to look to the signs of history, when religious leaders gained power throughout past societies. Thats why so many religious folks are being viewed as "nutters" as you say, these days.

I can see your point, or where you are coming from. Some people, however, feel that homosexuality is wrong morally without any reference to Jesus Christ or religion. A belief system is what we all have, you just elaborately expressed a belief you have...and quite well spelled out I might add. This is a human trait, Osborn...we have all to live with each other as we do this. Religious people do not corner the market on beliefs either tangable, imaginary or helplessly hopeful.

[Starboy]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid Do you believe your father is your father? How do you know? You WANT to believe....and if a paternity test showed he was not you may say "well, he's the only father I know"..that is a belief system. But I don't want to confuse you with logic. Being a fucking nutter is in of itself quite different then being one with ones own beliefs ..thinking, feeling and trusting with a SANE and logical mind. Those who think that the universe around them along with their existence has to make sense on their level is a fucking fruitcake if you ask me. Aside from self indulgence, self important rhetoric there is no reason why you should have the capicity to expect to understand what is obviously over your head. That is why the dead never return to tell tales...you clearly wouldn't be able to handle it and mankind would cease to exist as it is. I guess common sense just isn't so common with some.

If I read this correctly what you appear to saying is that people who try to make sense of the universe around them are "fruitcake(s)". You also seem to be saying that if the dead came back among the living that mankind would cease to exist. Is this so? How do you know this? Are you saying that the dead have never come back among the living since if they had then we would have ceased to exist? Is this just a guess on your part or are you saying that you are privy to knowledge that humans just do not normally have? Perhaps I have misunderstood you. If I have, please explain. If not then explain how you can justify this special knowledge any better than the claims of others with special knowledge that you do not accept.

Starboy

[OberonDOtherseid]

I explained myself already. You can believe what you want, and so will I.

[Starboy]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid I explained myself already. You can believe what you want, and so will I.

Hey you asked the question as to how I could suspect that you were dishonest. I appreciate your live and let live attitude but your posts indicate that you are most likely lying to yourself. You are at least being dishonest with yourself.

Starboy

[Cephus]

Quote by: OberonDOtherseid What are you on about? What am I being dishonest about? I said you choose your destiny and I choose mine....help me with this, show me where my dishonesty lies? Maybe that is MY commentary on the scenery from my house, right?

No you don't. You can no more choose if there is an afterlife than you can choose to jump off a cliff, flap your arms and fly. It's either real or it's not and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change it.

Unfortunately for believers, all the evidence we have suggests there is nothing after death. You're born, you live, you die, you become worm food. Period.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Gorgo No, the purpose was to contrast the two ideas and your reaction to them. You would fear it if your children did something as normal as being homosexual, but you would inflict them with irrational fantasies.

Being homosexual is not normal. Even basic human biology tells us that mating is only between male and female and not between males or between females.

However, why is it that it has become politically incorrect to criticize liberals, secularists, so-called "minorities", and homosexuals (and other sexual deviants) but it is perfectly acceptable to not merely criticize but express virulent hatred toward conservatives and people of Christian or Jewish faith, as well as the so-called "majority" (white, heterosexual males)?

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Chancellor but express virulent hatred toward

Why has it become politically correct to hyperbolize? I wouldn't even characterize your fear of things not "normal" as virulent hatred, so I certainly wouldn't characterize my attempts to help people lose their fear of reality as virulent hatred.

[Prometheus]

The fallacy here is that the desire to insult those who are religious is being billed as an intellectual need. Those who want to insult religious beleivers want to say that they insult out of offence taken to the affront to logic and reason that religion presents. This is not the case. Insults given serve no capacity of rectification for a logical violation be religion. People who want to insult religion are just giving in to the basic human desire to hurt others and elevate ones-self.

It's a free country, say what you will, but don't try to say that your insults have any more intellectual import than any other insult about weight, intellegance or appearance.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Prometheus The fallacy here is that the desire to insult those

You'll need to be more specific. What insults? From whom? Who is billing this as an intellectual need? I don't know what that means?

[Prometheus]

People justify insults by giving intellectual arguments against religion. What I am saying is that it is disengenuous to say that meanspirited insults are justified by anti-religious arguments, wheather or not they are sound arguments.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Prometheus What I am saying is that it is disengenuous to say that meanspirited insults are justified by anti-religious arguments

Yes. I would not condone mean-spirited insult against anyone, but you're not telling us what that has to do with this conversation.

[Prometheus]

All I was getting at is that on a forum where we obviously hold valid arguments above the emotionality of insults, a religious insult should be given no more credance than any other insult. There is no more justification, as has been implied in this thread.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Prometheus religious insult should be given no more credance than any other insult.

Well, posts that have something relevant to the thread should be given more credence than those that don't. This appears to be one that has no relevance without further explanation.

[Prometheus]

It is clear that it is okay to insult religious believers on Volconvo

The initial post implies that religious insults are acceptable when other types are not.

since posting or mentioning Religion in a favoriable manner just means you open yourself up for insults.

Anyway, I'm tired of bickering about this.

[Gorgo]

Quote by: Prometheus Anyway, I'm tired of bickering about this.

Well, stop bickering, no one else is. I'm just trying to figure out your point. Vicchio was just spouting his usual nonsense about someone being insulted. No one is being insulted except anyone that Vicchio doesn't like.

[Starboy]

Quote by: Prometheus People justify insults by giving intellectual arguments against religion. What I am saying is that it is disengenuous to say that meanspirited insults are justified by anti-religious arguments, wheather or not they are sound arguments.

Sounds great but often times the religious person takes offence at statements that were not meant to insult. If I call someone a vacuous git and they have not been behaving as a vacuous git then that is an insult but if they have been then it is not. It is just a colorful way of stating a fact. Just so happens that people who deceive, lie, defraud and manipulate do not like to be called cheaters, liars, frauds or con artists. It is well known that crooks do not like being called crooks. Well tough shit. Stop being a crook. If you are dishonest and lie to yourself then stop doing it otherwise expect to be called dishonest. If you make claims that no one on the earth can verify and yet you would not accept similar claims from someone else then expect to be called a fraud because fraud is what you are doing. If you continuously try to fraud people and it has been pointed out to you that trying to convince people to act on claims that you would not accept with similar evidence and you keep on doing it then expect to be called a con artist. And if you would call someone deluded if they act on claims that in any other context people would call fantasy then expect to be called deluded if you do the same with your own pet religious fantasies. What the religious do continuously is beg for special treatment that they would not extend to anyone else that acted as they do but for a different religion that they do not believe in. They know fraud, delusion, dishonesty and deception when they see it in others but are blind to it in themselves. They are so lucky that we atheists have no supernatural dog in the hunt and can point out just how dishonest they are being.

Starboy