Why do you care if people believe in God?

[Mr.Vicchio]

ItsDarts, I brought those nations up because RELIGION IS BANNED IN THOSE PLACES.


Banned, not secular government that allows religion, banned, as in you can die for professing belief in something greater then the State.

I can't believe you can't see that simple point.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio But yet those people in those other countries aren't afforded that belief, just religious people?

Correct.


Religion is the only one.



As a sidebar, do you realize that you've been equating religion and Nazi's, Stalin, etc.?

You think it's ok for an evil person to consider themselves a good person?

[Praxius]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Correct. Religion is the only one. As a sidebar, do you realize that you've been equating religion and Nazi's, Stalin, etc.? You think it's ok for an evil person to consider themselves a good person?

Even evil people follow religion, that doesn't make them a good person obviously..... if religion really worked the way it should, they probably wouldn't be evil, but religion doesn't work that way, and thus, they use religion to their advantage to get what they desire.

[GHook93]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio What gives you the right to hate religious people? Of all the forums I have and will debate on, this place is honestly the most openly hostile to religion, and to belief in God. I don't mind people challenging God, Jesus, Budda or what ever. I think that's healthy, if you choose NOT to have Faith in a higher power that's your gig... But what gives you the right to insult the beliefs of others? "Fairy Tale Being in the sky!" "Religious Nuts!" and other disparaging comments shows an utter lack of civility and I might add, a bigoted mind set. So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, (or whatever you know what I mean) what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

They have as much right as the religious nuts that hating on the infidels or non-believers!

[Autolykos]

Quote by: iclaudius Ok... so do you believe that something can be truly and legitimately justified, or do you believe that true morality is subjective? Do you believe that all moral codes are legitimate in which actions they justify, regardless of your own personal value system? And do you believe that value systems are inherently equal in their ability to judge right and wrong?

I don't believe that there is such a thing as "true morality" in an objective, empirical sense. There are no "moral facts" waiting to be discovered. Concepts like justification and legitimacy exist only within the human mind. However, that does not mean that one should be amoral.

Are all moral codes legitimate in which actions they justify? From the standpoint of external reality, again, legitimacy does not exist. So from that standpoint, it's nonsensical to ask such a question. On the other hand, from my own, personal point of view, not all moral codes are created equal. I feel that some are superior to others, and the most superior is the one I choose to follow.

Finally, your last question seems to assume that "right and wrong" are somehow facts waiting to be discovered, i.e. that there is some "one true morality" out there, independent of human minds. As far as I can see, there is no empirical proof in favor of such a view. From a personal point of view, however, I can say that not all value systems are equal in their ability to judge what I consider to be right and wrong.

- Rob

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: fushigi But do you really think vicious invective is a good motivator to get Christians to view the bible with skepticism? By vicious invective, I mean comments like calling religion a "a lethal and counter-productive delusion." I think when most Christians hear that, it only makes them more reactionary and closes their minds that much more.

Sure. That's not what I call it when I actively debate with intent to help Christians. I call it that in these threads when I justify my reasons. My current on-going essay is very modest and understanding of Christians while providing key points against the Bible.

[fushigi]

Quote by: GHook93 They have as much right as the religious nuts that hating on the infidels or non-believers!

Which means... they have no right, correct?

[fushigi]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Sure. That's not what I call it when I actively debate with intent to help Christians. I call it that in these threads when I justify my reasons. My current on-going essay is very modest and understanding of Christians while providing key points against the Bible.

Well I guess our views aren't so divergent. I have no problem with campaigning against intolerance, so long as that intolerance is unjustified.

Any chance we can get a peek at that? I know authors are normally very sensitive about works in progress, but if you're willing I'd be curious to check out how you construct your argument.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I don't care what they believe. They are evil people. Religion is the only institution that a person who does evil things can simply wash himself free of those things and become a good person as if they didn't ever happen.

Ummm, what? People do evil things all the time and claim some way out and are even viewed as heroes. "I was just following orders" comes to mind. And doing evil things does not make you an evil person, evil is about intent, not result.

[fushigi]

Quote by: tman Religion is the only institution that a person who does evil things can simply wash himself free of those things and become a good person as if they didn't ever happen.

I could just as easily say that religion is one of the only institutions that teaches a person it's wrong to do evil things.

[Nono]

Praxius answered the question: It's freedom of speech that gives people the right.

Vicchio just phrased his question poorly. It should have been: "Where does all the bile come from?"

I'd guess that in some parts of the world (hint hint) it comes from having the prevailing religion shoved down your throat all the time.

Not that I'm joining in the hooting at anyone's personal beliefs, mind.

[fushigi]

I do agree that religion, like all beliefs, is something that needs to be questioned all the time. If its arguments are true, they will become self-evident to you whether you think critically about them or not.

But do it logically. Be inclusive and level-headed. Maintain calm. Otherwise you'll only cause a reactionary, conservative backlash.

That would mean that viciously attacking religion is probably a better strategy to encourage it to stick to its roots rather than evolve.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: fushigi I could just as easily say that religion is one of the only institutions that teaches a person it's wrong to do evil things.

Laws do that.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary People do evil things all the time and claim some way out and are even viewed as heroes.

Only in religion, actually.

And doing evil things does not make you an evil person, evil is about intent, not result.

As a simply matter of semantics, it must.

If what you were doing didn't have an evil intent, it wouldn't have been an evil action.

[fushigi]

Quote by: fushigi I could just as easily say that religion is one of the only institutions that teaches a person it's wrong to do evil things.

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Laws do that.

Like I said, it's one of the only institutions.

Furthermore, laws don't say it's wrong to do evil things to everyone. To some people, they say don't get caught.

[iclaudius]

Quote by: fushy I do agree that religion, like all beliefs, is something that needs to be questioned all the time. If its arguments are true, they will become self-evident to you whether you think critically about them or not.

And yet, the end-all of western religion is faith. If you're questioning it all the time, then religion isn't doing its job to make you happy. You end up doing all the work, and in that case, how would it be more beneficial to believe in a God than it would any ordinary system of beliefs? To say that you are sustained by faith and are always questioning it are a fundamental contradiction.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Hitler thought he was improving the human race, a honorable intention (among other, less honorable ones) but he committed one of the worst crimes ever. Would you say that this action was not evil, eent though it had a good, if twisted, intent?

Only in religion, actually.

So the soldier who killed and raped civilians but is given a heroes welcome at home is not doing the same thing? doing evil things but being percieved as good?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Laws do that.

Laws don't teach people, laws control people. There's a difference. And if you think laws are a good guide for morality, then I'm glad I don't live near you.

[tman_ndsu08]

Laws certainly do teach.

You break a law and you're punished.

You learn not to do that, assuming the punishment causes great discomfort.



Morality is not something that should be guided. It's a set of personal choices that each person should make on their own.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: fushigi I could just as easily say that religion is one of the only institutions that teaches a person it's wrong to do evil things.

Cept for law, family, society, and philosophy.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Laws don't teach people, laws control people. There's a difference. And if you think laws are a good guide for morality, then I'm glad I don't live near you.

Yes, they teach you. They pose the inevitable question of.. why is killing someone deserving of punishment?

Either way, they also work. I live by the law, as do a ton of other people, and I can assure you there's nothing scary about living next to me. I'd be more afraid to live by someone who has a 'only God shall judge me' attitude.