Why do you care if people believe in God?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Zinkovich "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." -In response to an interview question "The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God." -In "Science and Religion" So, does Einstein believe in God? Yes, but his God was not the sort those who wish to pass laws and judgments believe- therefore, he is irrelevant and shouldn't be included in the group being criticized, here.

Why not? He believe's in a "God, an entity that created all" Why the special treatment?

[iclaudius]

Prax, what you're asking and what I'm saying are in two completely different realms. To answer your question, if religion, God, and all other like constructs were never even thought up, and the idea of blind belief were never ever fostered, then no, I do not think many of those things would have happened, but only because I think any free-thinking race that does not fall prey to such a human way of thinking wouldn't be as susceptible to the same human tragedies. We wouldn't be human as we understand humanity if those things weren't staples of our existence as a species. A species that does not at some point adopt a God and a religion is invariably be more mature than ours is. But as it happens, the human being is a very emotion-driven creature. It constantly needs to be reassured, to be told that what it's doing is right, it needs to know that there is hope, and it needs a meaningful context in which to place itself. Because of these (and other) instinctual emotional needs, I think religion and the like are essentially hardwired into our history, almost regardless of context, and so, I also think that occurrences like those listed are par for the course.

That said, wars that have sprung about because of, or have been in some way rationalized by, religion are a susceptibility that comes reflexively from our thinking abilities (and susceptibilities) combined with a thorough lack of understanding. Remember that we created religion for ourselves, and that this creation is actually a symptom of a greater behavioral problem associated with the human thought process. I'm not saying that religion did not directly precipitate those events; I'm merely saying that it's not religion itself, but people who are to blame. The reason we had those wars is not because the concept of religion descended from the heavens, implanted foreign thoughts into our brains, and caused us to hate people. We hated because of ourselves, and we buffered our hate by finding reasons to believe in ourselves, and what we were doing. Religion itself is only as bad as you let it be. You can stop at any time by questioning yourself.

Quote by: Fushy I'll let your quotes speak for themselves.

Then you're out of luck... together, they essentially say that you have no understanding of what you're reading. I'll break down what each quote means in the simplest terms possible, just for you.

Lullaby: Religion is a great breeding ground for hatred. Notice how I never said anything about all religion automatically yielding hatred; only that such an institution makes it extremely likely.

iclaudius: Fush, you're wrong, and Lullaby is basically correct. But why stop at religion? Every time blind faith is involved, things can get hairy like that.

iclaudius: Fush, no one ever said that religion automatically yielded hatred, only that religion makes it very likely. Moreover, I never said that. Inventing claims and defeating them is not the same as debating.

Quote by: Fushy iClod, I don't know if you need to switch to decaf or what, but in less than 40 posts you've come very close to becoming the first user I block here. In other words, I guess I'm almost to the point of saying maybe you shouldn't be posting here. Why not take it down a notch?

Yes, fush-boy, that's your answer: if you can't compete... ignore! But before you do that, consider this: I haven't ever called you names, I haven't flamed you, and in general, I've been pretty tolerant of the dumb things you've said. In order to become annoyed, you have to consent to being annoyed in the first place. Also, it's not like I'm constantly pestering you with inane, stupid flames; I'm providing actual argumentation that you yourself have yet to refute a word of. All this in mind, if you are seriously considering putting me on ignore, you would do well to remember that this is a debate forum, and if you aren't willing to be indicted for saying something wrong, it's best to stay home.

Now, I'm pretty confident that my conduct with you is well within the parameters of acceptable board behavior, and I'm sure most everyone would say the same thing. But if you have a problem with what I'm saying, by all means, go ahead and report my offensive posts, ignore me, or do whatever it is that you feel needs to be done. Prosze bardzo, really. I'm not particularly mean about anything I say, and in fact, all I've ever done to you is point out why you're wrong. If that annoys you, well, grow up. This is a debate forum. If you want someone to whipe your tushy all day, I suggest you go back to preschool. We're adults here, and if we're wrong, dammit, we should face up. I am always open to the possibility that I am wrong, but you have yet to show me any such instance. If you sense any resentment in my posts to you, it's because you say things that are wrong, and then are presumptuous enough to insist that I'm the one at fault for supplying your downfall. Don't kid yourself -- I'm not the problem, you are.

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Why not? He believe's in a "God, an entity that created all" Why the special treatment?

His God was not an anthropomorphic, nor was it traditionalist and based on ancient documents that contradict known scientific fact. His God was certainly not a creator-god either, but something more pantheistic in nature.

While his ideas were not scientific and deserve to be questioned with intellectual rigor, his belief system produced no ethical judgments, wars, murders or political movements.

So, is there a difference? Philosophically, yes- his ideas does not contradict with science and is thus not deserving of the same ridicule. Practically, the answer is also yes- his ideas were not given widespread acceptance and attention, and thus is not intellectually nor politically significant enough to warrant the same amount of skeptical treatment.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: iclaudius There are no rights? Explain.

There are no rights in an objective, empirical sense. To claim otherwise would be to invoke the reification fallacy. Rights "exist" only within human minds; therefore, they are subjective.

If you have any more questions, I suggest you read this blog post of mine: What Are Rights?

- Rob

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: fushigi Do you have any proof at all that religion - all by itself - causes hatred? That in any situation where people hated each other they wouldn't have hated had there been no religion?

Yes.. the Bible says infidels are fools. The Bible promotes intolerance to homosexuals and says that we must kill those who work on Sunday. The bible is just an overall nasty book that people are ACTUALLY following.

Quote by: fushigi Don't you think it's possible that you would have been beaten up and abused at school even if there was no religion?

First off, I don't see why my personal experiences should be argued, I was justifying my reason to question and even aggressively criticize religion.

But whatever..

They beat me up becuase I defended atheism in history class.. and as soon as that happened I was abused in much of the same way.. all the while I was often called an "atheist queer" and that I was a dumbass for thinking it was cool not to believe in my "lord". I don't know where they got the queer part, but it's pretty damn evident why they were abusing me. I was never abused before this, and it's no secret WHY they were beating the crap out of me.

Notice the above.. ..the Bible says infidels are fools.. ..I can't directly attribute this to their intolerenace but the Bible is definitely not a very kind book.

[Praxius]

Yeah and if you want another example of hatred developed by religion, look at the bible belt and all the crazys down there who up until the last few decades (Probably still do though) burned crosses, beat up blacks, push those who are different out of their community, and gang up on anybody who doesn't follow the masses..... forcing their views onto others.....

You want to know why there is so much hostility towards religions..... just look at what many who follow treat those who don't and you'll see why.

How about you check out what happened when there was talk in the UK about removing the head dresses of those who are Muslim when going to vote, or have to deal with government officials? What about when the pope slipped with that comment about carrying the faith by the sowrd...... remember how much of a stink that made? One guy hi-jacked a friggin plane over that, just to prove a point or something..... why? Because it was against their religion, so they felt they have to terrorize to make a point..... and Christians are no better.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Praxius, You have no clue what you are talking about.

My Grandfather grew up in Galveston Texas, he's a good man, and his opinion of Race is mine. "Who cares what color a man is, it's who they are not what"

And that's the standard attitude I find in the "Bible Belt"

Are there those with hate in their hearts? Yeah, is that true of the other side? Just look in the mirror man.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Yes.. the Bible says infidels are fools. The Bible promotes intolerance to homosexuals and says that we must kill those who work on Sunday. The bible is just an overall nasty book that people are ACTUALLY following. First off, I don't see why my personal experiences should be argued, I was justifying my reason to question and even aggressively criticize religion. But whatever.. They beat me up becuase I defended atheism in history class.. and as soon as that happened I was abused in much of the same way.. all the while I was often called an "atheist queer" and that I was a dumbass for thinking it was cool not to believe in my "lord". I don't know where they got the queer part, but it's pretty damn evident why they were abusing me. I was never abused before this, and it's no secret WHY they were beating the crap out of me. Notice the above.. ..the Bible says infidels are fools.. ..I can't directly attribute this to their intolerenace but the Bible is definitely not a very kind book.

They were beating you up because you were different, jesus, who they were supposedly following, never said anything to justify humans beating up others because they don't share their beliefs. Someone being a fool does not preclude violence towards them. And no one (who is honest with themselves) ever said the Bible is kind, humans are not a kind species, why would we invent a God that is any differenany different? The classmates beat you up because they were alienated by you, and, as any kid (or human, really) would do, they responded harshly, the religion did not cause them to be violent, it gave them a reason. Your atheism was no different than the geeky kid or the Goth kid who got beat up and called names, you were simply different. Your experience is a perfect microcosm of what happens with religion when it falls into the wrong hands, namely, those of humans.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary They were beating you up because you were different, jesus, who they were supposedly following, never said anything to justify humans beating up others because they don't share their beliefs. Someone being a fool does not preclude violence towards them. And no one (who is honest with themselves) ever said the Bible is kind, humans are not a kind species, why would we invent a God that is any differenany different? The classmates beat you up because they were alienated by you, and, as any kid (or human, really) would do, they responded harshly, the religion did not cause them to be violent, it gave them a reason. Your atheism was no different than the geeky kid or the Goth kid who got beat up and called names, you were simply different. Your experience is a perfect microcosm of what happens with religion when it falls into the wrong hands, namely, those of humans.

I'm already very different.. I wear makeup and my hair is crazy. If they were beating me up because I was different, then they would have been beating me up before they knew I was an atheist.. christ..

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio What gives you the right to hate religious people? Of all the forums I have and will debate on, this place is honestly the most openly hostile to religion, and to belief in God. I don't mind people challenging God, Jesus, Budda or what ever. I think that's healthy, if you choose NOT to have Faith in a higher power that's your gig... But what gives you the right to insult the beliefs of others? "Fairy Tale Being in the sky!" "Religious Nuts!" and other disparaging comments shows an utter lack of civility and I might add, a bigoted mind set. So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, (or whatever you know what I mean) what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

I am guessing this thread was partly directed at me.

Not all believers are religious nuts. People who believe that god is going to torture everyone who does not believe as they do - I consider them religious nuts.

The first amendment gives me the right to say that.

Why do I say that?

Because it is a psychotic belief system, and because many such people go out of their way to try and convince others of their psychotic belief system. I feel a bit of counterbalancing is in order, to say the least.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Praxius, You have no clue what you are talking about. My Grandfather grew up in Galveston Texas, he's a good man, and his opinion of Race is mine. "Who cares what color a man is, it's who they are not what" And that's the standard attitude I find in the "Bible Belt" Are there those with hate in their hearts? Yeah, is that true of the other side? Just look in the mirror man.

There are puhhhhhhlenty of racists in the Bible Belt, but I do not see what that has to do with religion. Except for those crazy-ass arian nation type churches, nearly all churches are staunchly antiracist.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer I'm already very different.. I wear makeup and my hair is crazy. If they were beating me up because I was different, then they would have been beating me up before they knew I was an atheist.. christ..

Your difference was never obvious enough to bother them, when you voiced your opinion, you then became a target, the quet different kid is rarely picked on violently, the one who speaks out goes through hell.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Your difference was never obvious enough to bother them, when you voiced your opinion, you then became a target, the quet different kid is rarely picked on violently, the one who speaks out goes through hell.

So your saying, my beliefs had nothing to do with it?

I'm very different from the start.. and not at all quite.

I defend atheism in my history class, and I'm instantly ridiculed for my beliefs.

Within a few days, and months continuing, I'm beaten up after school.. being called an "atheist queer."

But it has nothing to do with my beliefs?

It has nothing to do with the Christian ego-pride that the Bible promotes? With graphic demonstrations, in a book they FOLLOW with their life, of how bad non-believers are and the horrible things that their religion has promoted in the past? That has nothing to do with it? The intolerance towards people like me in a book that they live by has nothing to do with them beating me up for my beliefs?

[Gods_Mercenary]

It has everything to do with your beliefs, that's what made you different, And what was important among your differences to these kids, but this is not a thing specific to religion. Like I said, among the religious kids some get beat up, some do the beating up, it's not like your the sole one being tormented. And kids beating up other kids either haven't read much of the bible, or show some good selective reading, or really don't care what the book says, at least the guy they claim to follow.

[Yasa]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 As for how such a being could come into existence, Captian Chaos has a very plausible mathematical model for that.

I'd like to see this, can you link please?

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary It has everything to do with your beliefs, that's what made you different

Your right, because the Bible breeds intolerance.

Either way, I didn't come here to debate my own personal experiences. I quickly gave MY reasons.. namely the death of my brother, and then gave reasons in general. You should be debating the reasons in general as you haven't any place to tell me what happened to me and why they beat me up and why they refused to get my brother's inhaler.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Lullaby, when you make your self a target in High school, you get nailed, write or wrong it's always been that way, has nothing to do with religion, because no Christian church I know of (maybe the idiots in the KKK, I'll grant you that) support violence towards people like you.

So your point is you made a stink, you are intentionally odd, and someone beat you up so instead of facing the reality that your actions and their ignorance lead to this, you blame religion. Not very bright.

[Gods_Mercenary]

They refused to get your brother's inhaler because they were apparently devoid of sense, or parenting, but that's besides the point.

What were your reasons in general, I've already adressed these reasons, and began the discussion we are currently solely about you.

[Jagged]

I'm sure this has already been said, but I certainly believe i have the right to have my own opinion, and thus to hate anything i want to.

Not that i hate all religious people, anyways.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Hate is a terrible emotion, it defies reason and is the reason that men like hitler can be populists. I try to downplay any hate I may feel to a simple aversion, and never do it to a general group if I can help it.