Why do you care if people believe in God?

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio What gives you the right to hate religious people? Of all the forums I have and will debate on, this place is honestly the most openly hostile to religion, and to belief in God.

Isn't this an over generalization? Why do you think we'd hate the person rather than their unjustifiable belief in an invisable friend in the sky? I don't care that you believe in this friend. Any attacks you may perceive are generally towards your debate style, (or lack of it), your arguments, or your lack of evidence and the ignoring of contradictory evidence against your claims.

I don't mind people challenging God, Jesus, Budda or what ever. I think that's healthy, if you choose NOT to have Faith in a higher power that's your gig...

I agree and you are more than welcome to challenge my lack of belief with simple evidence that your claims about your religion are true. Personally, I'm tired of the "Faith" defense, because faith is nothing more than belief without logical proof or empirical evidence. It is not the virtue your religion tells you it is, it is illogical.

But what gives you the right to insult the beliefs of others? "Fairy Tale Being in the sky!" "Religious Nuts!" and other disparaging comments shows an utter lack of civility and I might add, a bigoted mind set.

Why are you insulted by the fairy tail comment? It is our opinion that it is a fairy tail because there is no evidence to support its assertions. If someone calls you a religious nut, then I would agree its an attack against you, but then I'd have to ask why you were called that. We're you being a nut?

So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, (or whatever you know what I mean) what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

The same thing that gives you the right to say I'm going to hell because I lack belief in your god or any other god. The same thing that gives Felps the right to say God Hates F*gs, Freedom of speech. Insulting your belief is not the same as insulting you. Ask why your belief is being insulted then back up your belief with evidence. If you can't, expect the belief to be insulted.

[iclaudius]

Quote by: fushigi I'm just saying don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. For me, using the word "spawn" implies "cause." (Again with the syntax over semantics!)

It's funny that you should even mention semantics, since it was you who started all this nit-picking in the first place. Your post was an indictment of Lullaby's thoughts, but since you failed to grasp what he meant in the first place, the semantics (which were perfectly coherent in his post) became a legitimate object of debate. It wasn't a small point that you misinterpreted what "spawn" meant, either... your central claim was that religion does not cause hatred, and that Lullaby was wrong. I responded by saying that Lullaby never said what you say he did, and then I went on to buffer his original argument. If you seriously contend that I "agree" with you (as you do further down that post of yours), and that my nit-picking is inconsequential, then by default you must also agree with Lullaby, and if that's true, you should never have responded to his statement in the first place. It is your response, and not mine, that is redundant. Either way, you lose.

And again, you debate me on a small point, then agree in substance to my main idea. Then you disagree with me again...

As a note of clarification, that quote where I say "there is no casual relationship" is a little vague out of context. But being that the rest of my post contends that there is a little more than just a casual relationship between religion an evil, I think we can safely assume that this is just a slip of the fingers. What I really meant to say was that the relationship between the two is not just incidental, but actually very much linked. If you actually paid attention, maybe you would have picked that up...

First, just because religions teach believers not to question, that doesn't make those believers hate. In fact, it might teach believers not to hate. One of the things Christians - for example - aren't supposed to question is that we should forgive our enemies. Buddhists and Daoists aren't supposed to question that all life is sacred. Religion can produce a sense of morality or ethics that actually restrains hatred in its subjects.

I never said that blind belief automatically yielded hate, and if that's what you got out of my post, you clearly shouldn't be posting here. If you understood what I read, you'd know that I said that blind faith is very often a precipitating ingredient in the bad things it has come to be known for. But regardless, western religion may or may not teach people not to hate, but that is not a universal practice among the so-called faithful. It can indeed restrain violence, bigotry, stupidity, but who said it couldn't? Blind faith may not always yield bad results, but no matter what moral code it is supposed to operate under, is a universally bad thing. I don't care if every unquestioning believer was Mother Teresa, the fact that they are goaded into not questioning anything could very easily have turned out very badly, as well. Furthermore, if you actually paid attention, you'd note that I wasn't actually talking specifically about religion, but about all contexts in which blind faith is encouraged. I never said that bad things and religion were the same, only that they tend to entail each other. That you automatically defend religion implies that you had an agenda before you even responded, and if that's the case, what's the point in even debating?

For the record, here is my position on religion:

It is one thing to have blind faith in the concept of good and to accept things that you percieve to be so, and another thing to have blind faith in a thing, and follow it to whatever ends you are told to. "Good Catholics" who do not earnestly question the Bible's truthfulness because they believe in its good are different from those who do not believe in the Bible and simply do not question, or question only on minor discrepencies within it. It's a significant distinction to make. I don't support either, but I'd take the former any day over the latter any day.

Second, just because religions teach believers not to question, that doesn't mean they'll actually resist questioning altogether. If you look at the list 5010 posted above, you'll see that many great minds were religious; religion didn't keep them from being revolutionary thinkers whose actions you benefit from every day.

Yeah? And when did I say that they did? You missed the critical reason why religion and all other things encouraging blind faith are fundamentally bad things. You need to re-read what I've written.

[Mr.Vicchio]

ItsDarts,

It's not the comment "Fairy Tale" that bothers me, it's the mindset behind, the utter lack of... respect? It's how it's said that matters here. You could say "I don't believe in God, I think it's a fairy tale for children nothing more." Non-offensive.

The common use, around here is "You religious nuts believe in fairy tale spirits in the sky!"


See the difference?

[Praxius]

Quote by: fushigi Do you have any proof at all that religion - all by itself - causes hatred? That in any situation where people hated each other they wouldn't have hated had there been no religion? Don't you think it's possible that you would have been beaten up and abused at school even if there was no religion?

Anybody can get beaten up for anything..... but since you asked for proof of hatred from Religions.....

How about the Crusades?

How about when Jesus died?

How about the Jews and every single thing that has occured to them thoughout the centuries?

How about what's going on in Iraq?

How about what's going on between Christians and Muslims?

How about China oppressing Taibet?

Bosnia?

Dafur?

What happened to the Natives of the Americas?

Africa and when it was under British rule and Christianity was forced apon them?

How about the burning and torture of those Christians thought were witches?

How about the oppresson of those who are gay or transexual?

How about the guilt trips Christians like to throw at those who don't believe.

WWII?

Now before you go and say that none of those can be directly related to religions themselves, I would have to reply that it is the very core reason for many wars and hatred around the world, due to the followers of said religion either attempt to follow their religion too well, or they take it out of context for their own personal gains..... the bottom line is that each situation above is related directly to religion, because each one of those situations uses one side to identify the other side as being different, due to their beliefs and what they stand for.

Millions of Jews were killed in WWII by Nazi Germany, for the sole reason they were Jewish and their own sterio-typical labeling of the culture so that they were deemed evil.... they were no more different as humans then you or I, but because of what they followed and what they believed, they were killed.

In principle, religions are suppose to bring peace in one's life, but we all know that's not the case most of the time, and people use their religions to justify their interferance in someone else's life.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, (or whatever you know what I mean) what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

Nothing gives anyone such a right. There are no rights. People will insult others when they are able and willing.

Perhaps the better question to ask is, why are people willing to insult the religious?

- Rob

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio ItsDarts, It's not the comment "Fairy Tale" that bothers me, it's the mindset behind, the utter lack of... respect? It's how it's said that matters here. You could say "I don't believe in God, I think it's a fairy tale for children nothing more." Non-offensive. The common use, around here is "You religious nuts believe in fairy tale spirits in the sky!" See the difference?

I see the difference, but at least provide the evidence that anyone is calling you or any of the theists here a nut. So if I say "You, Mr Vicchio sir, believe in fairy tail spirits in the sky." is not offensive, correct? It is nothing more than my opinion that you believe in fairy tails.

[iclaudius]

Quote by: Praxius Now before you go and say that none of those can be directly related to religions themselves, I would have to reply that it is the very core reason for many wars and hatred around the world, due to the followers of said religion either attempt to follow their religion too well, or they take it out of context for their own personal gains..... the bottom line is that each situation above is related directly to religion, because each one of those situations uses one side to identify the other side as being different, due to their beliefs and what they stand for.

Well, they're related to religion, to be sure, but religion didn't necessarily cause any of the hatred. Fleshed it out, gave it a channel, buffered it, and in general fostered it, but isn't directly the cause of it. It's not like religion implants ideas in your brain. It just exacerbates what's already there.

[iclaudius]

Quote by: Autolykos Nothing gives anyone such a right. There are no rights. People will insult others when they are able and willing. Perhaps the better question to ask is, why are people willing to insult the religious? - Rob

There are no rights? Explain.

[rez]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Tell me Rez, why is the concept of "God" so hard to accept for you?

Which concept of god are you talking about Vicchio?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: rez Which concept of god are you talking about Vicchio?

The one where God gives everyone a candy bar when they die.



I'm talking about the concept of a "supreme Being" One that created the Universe, designed it. Screw the Churches and their "interpretations" of the bible.

[rez]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio I'm talking about the concept of a "supreme Being" One that created the Universe, designed it.

That is an assumption on your part buddy. There are a couple of simple logical reasonings why I don't believe a "supreme being" designed the universe.

If I were to think something created the universe, then I would have ask myself what created the supreme being. I could stick with the explanation that there was an infinite amount of supreme beings that were creating the universe and make more stuff up, but then I would be really pulling at strings and ultimately be fooling myself. You see, it is about being honest with your philosophical journey. You must be objective as possible. Religion requires one to stick to a certain path and forever stay on it without ever questioning such path.

I do not need to assign any type of magical being a set of moral codes that has the ability to judge others. Quite frankly I realize that the only person that is in control of all these thoughts about moral codes and rules are from me personally. It is obvious that if a person uses fear to persuade someone to act a certain way, then that certain way will never be utilized.

There is much more spiritual fulfillment in the uncertainty of the universe. The universe is so complex and vast, yet you choose to make it something it's not by making up stories that primitive man thought up thousands and thousands of years ago. I will admit science does not know all the answers, but science never claimed to have absolute knowledge either and I think that is where the subject becomes special.

The point is, your philosophical views are shallow and primitive Vicchio. The idea of spirits,demons, and holy sacrifices may have tickled my goat when I was ten years old, but now I moved on into a field that is just a little more realistic and most importantly current.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

I can understand their frustration.


Steven Weinberg put it aptly:

"Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."



Good men do so many evil things in the name of religion.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer In general, delusions need to be dealt with to advance society and improve our only for-sure life. Religion spawns hatred and an attitude of "these are my believe, I do not need to question them, and neither do you." Religion teaches that blind faith is a positive thing, and thus blind action should be rewarded. Religion is a lethal and counter-productive delusion that I, frankly, do not feel safe to live around and I fear for the future of my children in a world of such repulsive delusional fanatics ready to kill and drop its feces over the government and laws that will one day uphold my precious children.

I, too.

[Praxius]

Well, they're related to religion, to be sure, but religion didn't necessarily cause any of the hatred. Fleshed it out, gave it a channel, buffered it, and in general fostered it, but isn't directly the cause of it. It's not like religion implants ideas in your brain. It just exacerbates what's already there.

So hypothetically, if there was never any kind of religion in the human societies' history, and nobody ever thought a God existed, or the term God was never invented, do you feel those things listed above would have still occured?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I can understand their frustration. Steven Weinberg put it aptly: "Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Good men do so many evil things in the name of religion.

I suppose the purely secular examples of Government are models we should strive for... let's look at three examples of the 20th and 21st Century...

USSR, NK and China. I bet ya they were models of human spirit achieving so much because, religion is banned in all those places. There would be no gulags, death camps, mass murdering of civilians and horrific cased of starvation and lack of humans rights.... right? I mean you're argument clearly states that religion is a source of great evil, so take out religion and life is great!


Right??

[Kamehameha34]

If I were to think something created the universe, then I would have ask myself what created the supreme being. I could stick with the explanation that there was an infinite amount of supreme beings that were creating the universe and make more stuff up, but then I would be really pulling at strings and ultimately be fooling myself. You see, it is about being honest with your philosophical journey.

You don't think that the ridiculousness of infinite regression applies to any scientific theory, as well?

As for how such a being could come into existence, Captian Chaos has a very plausible mathematical model for that.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Lull Religion spawns hatred

Quote by: iClod though it is true that not all believers will turn into monsters, the absence of a questioning attitude in the majority of them is enough to make Lullaby's claim essentially true.

Quote by: iClod I never said that blind belief automatically yielded hate, and if that's what you got out of my post, you clearly shouldn't be posting here.

I'll let your quotes speak for themselves.

iClod, I don't know if you need to switch to decaf or what, but in less than 40 posts you've come very close to becoming the first user I block here. In other words, I guess I'm almost to the point of saying maybe you shouldn't be posting here.

Why not take it down a notch?

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: rez The point is, your philosophical views are shallow and primitive Vicchio. The idea of spirits,demons, and holy sacrifices may have tickled my goat when I was ten years old, but now I moved on into a field that is just a little more realistic and most importantly current.

More realistic? Well I have to bring smarter people then you into this...

In a recent book Max Jammer, Rector Emeritus of Bar Lan University in Jerusalem, a former colleague of Albert Einstein at Princeton, claims that Einstein's understanding of physics and his understanding of religion were profoundly bound together, for it seemed to Einstein that nature exhibited traces of God quite like "a natural theology." Indeed it is with the help of natural science that the thoughts of God may be tapped and grasped. 1 On the subject of Einstein and God Friedrich Dürrenmatt once said, "Einstein used to speak of God so often that I almost looked upon him as a disguised theologian." 2 I do not believe these references to God can be dismissed simply as a façon de parler, for God had a deep, if rather elusive, significance for Einstein which was not unimportant for his life and scientific activity. It indicated a deep-seated way of life and thought: "God" was not a theological mode of thought but rather the expression of a "lived faith" (eines gelebten Glaubens). 1# Max Jammer, Einstein und Die Religion, Konstantz, 1995. 2# Friedrich Dürrenmatt, Albert Einstein, Z ürich, 1979, p.12, cited by Max Jammer, op. cit. p. 54: "Einstein pflegte so oft von Gott zu sprechen, dass ich beinahe vermute, er sei ein verkappter Theologe gewesen."

Einstein and God

Would you call Einstein a Quack? A man whose intelligence is hampered by silly notions of a non-existent God?

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio More realistic? Well I have to bring smarter people then you into this... Einstein and God Would you call Einstein a Quack? A man whose intelligence is hampered by silly notions of a non-existent God?

"I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."
-In response to an interview question

"The main source of the present-day conflicts between the spheres of religion and of science lies in this concept of a personal God."
-In "Science and Religion"

So, does Einstein believe in God? Yes, but his God was not the sort those who wish to pass laws and judgments believe- therefore, he is irrelevant and shouldn't be included in the group being criticized, here.

[fushigi]

Quote by: Zinkovich So, does Einstein believe in God? Yes, but his God was not the sort those who wish to pass laws and judgments believe- therefore, he is irrelevant and shouldn't be included in the group being criticized, here.

Whoa whoa whoa Zinc, hold on a second. We have just seen that Einstein - while clearly not a religious man - was a firm believer in God, which for some atheists would make him a legitimate target for mockery. I think he definitely belongs in the group here, since he still had an unshakeable faith.