Why do you care if people believe in God?

[Mr.Vicchio]

You guys are amazing in your ability to twist reality.

There is no "Theocracy" in America, and rick, I firmly believe in freedom, I just don't think that your vision of freedom is freedom at all. It's oppression of religion in the name of freedom. I can see you now... "I believe in freedom, you just can't do that you religious freak!"

And Zhavric, please, abuse Thomas Jefferson more. You cherry pick the mans statements. How about his actions?

In fact, consider these actions by Jefferson: * In 1774, while serving in the Virginia Assembly, Jefferson personally introduced a resolution calling for a day of fasting and prayer. * In 1779, as governor of Virginia, Jefferson decreed a day of "public and solemn thanksgiving and prayer to Almighty God." * As president, Jefferson signed bills that appropriated financial support for chaplains in Congress and the armed services. * On March 4, 1805, President Jefferson offered "A National Prayer for Peace," which petitioned "Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."

[Jack]

There is no "Theocracy" in America

Didn't say there was, yet. But that certainly appears to be the goal of the religious right.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio You guys are amazing in your ability to twist reality. There is no "Theocracy" in America, and rick, I firmly believe in freedom, I just don't think that your vision of freedom is freedom at all. It's oppression of religion in the name of freedom. I can see you now... "I believe in freedom, you just can't do that you religious freak!" And Zhavric, please, abuse Thomas Jefferson more. You cherry pick the mans statements. How about his actions?

Your delusions are getting the better of you. There is no legal "oppression of religion" in this country. You religious zealots just want the right to ride roughshod over everyone who doesn't share your dogma.

Jefferson's actions regarding freedom of and freedom from religion could not be more clear. Read his tombstone, which he himself wrote. It lists the accomplishments of which he was most proud. It reads: '"Here was buried Thomas Jefferson; Author of the Declaration of American Independence; Of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom; And Father of the University of Virginia." He was obviously more proud of the "Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom" than he was of being president. It reads in part:

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."

Read some history before you start making silly claims about what Jefferson did or did not believe.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Isherwood Didn't say there was, yet. But that certainly appears to be the goal of the religious right.

Yeah... not.

Sorry I'm part of the "right wing" as I think you know, and I wouldn't support a Theocracy, and I don't know a single person who would.


I think you're being absurdly paranoid.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Yeah, rick, again you Abuse Jefferson and his intent. Nice.

He was against a state religion. I.E. The US Church and everyone havening to support it, he was NOT against religion in government.

Sorry but you fail, again.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Yeah, rick, again you Abuse Jefferson and his intent. Nice. He was against a state religion. I.E. The US Church and everyone havening to support it, he was NOT against religion in government. Sorry but you fail, again.

All you are proving V is that you know squat about Thomas Jefferson. Why you persist in highlighting your ignorance is unclear to me.

As any middle schooler should know, though it seems to have escaped you, Jefferson was , as indeed many of the Founders, a deist. His concept of God was as a universal being largely involved with mankind. Your claim that Jefferson "was NOT against religion in government" is simply idiotic and ignores history.

[Mr.Vicchio]

What gives you the right to hate religious people?
Of all the forums I have and will debate on, this place is honestly the most openly hostile to religion, and to belief in God.


I don't mind people challenging God, Jesus, Budda or what ever. I think that's healthy, if you choose NOT to have Faith in a higher power that's your gig...


But what gives you the right to insult the beliefs of others? "Fairy Tale Being in the sky!" "Religious Nuts!" and other disparaging comments shows an utter lack of civility and I might add, a bigoted mind set.


So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, (or whatever you know what I mean) what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

[Kamehameha34]

Of all the forums I have and will debate on, this place is honestly the most openly hostile..

It's that way for a lot of things. Hence the name.

[Zinkovich]

So what GIVES you the right to insult people that have a firm belief in God, (or whatever you know what I mean) what gives you the right to treat people so poorly?

The simple fact of the matter is that I can care less about the personality of the people who believe in thier religion when it is brought to the center of discussion. What I care about is what support they have for the beliefs that motivate them judge and restrict others so much.

If they would show me the sort of support for thier beliefs that would stand in the court of law, I might accept the political verdicts they try to pass that effect the treatment of certian domestic and scientific issues like a court sentence against those who have/support the ideas and lifestyles they disagree with.

Edit: Also, I would like some examples of people in this forum directly insulting religious people in a way that is purely personal, rather than based on intellectual conjecture(such as the whole "fairy tale" bit you referred to).

[Praxius]

I never try and downplay someone's beliefs, or insult their beliefs.... but when I make a comment on how I see things, and then some religious person comes in with their "This is how it is, and if you don't agree, you are going to Hell" attitude, then they can expect it right back.

Those who make comments such as what you described are stating their views and opinions of the collective.... for their own reasons. I state some of my negative views on religion, based on my past Roman Catholic upbrining and how stupid it all was.... that and my studies of other religions.

I believe the other reason why there is more "Hostility" here in these forums, as opposed to others, is probably because when I view related threads about religion, when someone who doesn't believe, asks a ligitamate question that have been wanting answered for a long time, only to get run around responses, and lack of any real defence, then you kinda get a little sick of having a good defense, against none at all.... so you loose some patience.

[PatrickHenry]

The most openly hostile members eventually get the boot, Vicchio.

Remember Starboy?
http://www.volconvo.com/forums/site-...st-groups.html
He wouldn't take the hint, indeed he refused to abide by the demand of the site owner and sayonara.

[Praxius]

Oh... and what gives me the right? Well... my right to freedom of speech for one thing..... I'm stating my opinion on something, and if I hate it, I'll explain why.... if it's something that pisses me off, then you'll probably hear it in my post as well.

When I really think about it, I think most of my frustration lies in due to going on 27 years of my life, asking the same stupid friggin questions, trying to solve the contradicting issues of religion, and never getting anywhere with the closed-minded religious fools out there who will not or can not shed light on the subjects..... you just get fed up after a while.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Zink, go read some of the religious threads, you'll find them I suppose I could go dig them up, but that wasn't the point of the thread.

Why do some people think they have a right to slam religious minded people?

I believe in God, I believe Jesus was real, died on the cross and rose again.

Does that make me a lesser person to some of you? Worthy or contempt and ridicule?

[5010]

The religious vs religious can be full of hatred too.

Consider Numbers 25, Exodus 32, Deuteronomy 7, Kings 14, etc (anger towards Baal and other gods)

Or from the quran: 009.034 (anger towards Christians and Jews)
or consider 022.017 (anger towards Jewish, Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists

[Zinkovich]

Why do some people think they have a right to slam religious minded people?

Frustration at not getting direct answers, I think. I'm sure you've felt the same frustration before on these forums, so maybe you can understand if you try thinking of it in that context.

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Does that make me a lesser person to some of you? Worthy or contempt and ridicule?

No, but it makes all of your actions that are based on such a belief questionable on an intellectual and political basis, in my opinion.

The nature of thier belief also causes me to ask religious people questions. This upsets many of them in such a way that they often read insult and condenscendation into my posts where there isn't any whatsoever.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Zink, go read some of the religious threads, you'll find them I suppose I could go dig them up, but that wasn't the point of the thread. Why do some people think they have a right to slam religious minded people? I believe in God, I believe Jesus was real, died on the cross and rose again. Does that make me a lesser person to some of you? Worthy or contempt and ridicule?

Nope... not to me anyways.... anybody can believe anything they want, because you can't prove any theory of existance at this point in our evolution.

I only go on the attack, when I feel some religious person is trying to be'little me and make themselves all "Mightier then Thou" ~ Vanity is a sin too

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio See, that's where you and I differ. Society must have something to hold it together, you are so non-judgmental IMHO you're dangerous. And the people like you are dangerous.

You are absolutely wrong.

I am very judgemental.

I am just not so full of myself to think that all of my judgements should be made into law and enforced at gunpoint.

All laws are enforced at gunpoint. Unless I would be willing to use my own gun to enforce my judgements, I will not ask someone else to do it on my behalf.

Keith

[rez]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio But what gives you the right to insult the beliefs of others? "Fairy Tale Being in the sky!"

Simple logic my friend, thats what.

All these gods that have been worshiped are claimed to hold the power of "truth". Which god is the god that holds the truth, Vicchio?


And yes, I am a bigot against those who think the supernatural realm is as real as computers and space exploration.


Hocas Pocas to you Vicchio!

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Vicchio Why do some people think they have a right to slam religious minded people? I believe in God, I believe Jesus was real, died on the cross and rose again. Does that make me a lesser person to some of you? Worthy or contempt and ridicule?

In a debate forum it makes you worthy of challenge, and some people can be very aggresive when challenging any viewpoint. I don't think that it is, in all cases, a real hatred of Christians; just a disagreement coupled with a forceful debate style.

[grandpa]

I know plenty of religious people and I hate the religious part of them. The rest is sometimes okay.

Frankly, religion sometimes terrorizes me. Other times it's simply baffling or annoying.

Grandpa h.