Why do you care if people believe in God?

[The Bacon Guy]

Leave it at +, I'll balance it out.

[Jack]

A belief doesn't effect a person. A person effects a person.

Theists themselves speak of the life altering effect of religion. If belief doesn't affect a person, why does religion maintain that it does? Every religion I know of teaches that its followers are different from non-believers.

The belief does nothing. Where you should be most concerned is with the person who, for whatever reason, doesn't filter their belief out of their actions in situations where their belief has no place.

Do you believe that belief does nothing? Perhaps I'm not understanding your point. Religious belief itself is what discourages believers from filtering out their beliefs from their social actions. Christianity in particular encourages its followers to include their belief in their every action. Everything they do is based on that belief system.

I could easily ask why people who claim to be rational and intelligent Atheists make such an ignorant generalization and leap of reasoning to take a question about believing in God and suddenly think it means "the current American Republican administration".

Bush said it himself. How is that an ignorant generalization? But I don't mean to hold up Bush as a unique example. As far as we know, no atheist has ever been president. They've all followed 2000 year old beliefs. Some have been better than others about limiting the influence their beliefs have had on their political decisions. Remember the national fear that Kennedy would submit to the Vatican in national decisions?

you're voicing an opinion about 4.8 billion people based on the actions of about 4,800.

What the 4.8 billion believe makes possible the actions of the 4800.

[Praxius]

Why do I care if they believe in God? Probably for the same reason why they care if I don't.....

If they don't like us bitching about them, then perhaps they should stop knocking on our doors, pointing fingers at us down the road, and giving us the guilt trip to make them feel good about themselves.

I never attack a religious person's beliefs, but when a religious person starts getting in my face claiming 100% that if I don't do as they say, aka: do what God says, then I'm going to hell, etc. etc.

If the hypocrites don't like being bitched at, then perhaps they shouldn't bitch either.

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: Bacon Hence, we would prefer if Christianity did not exist.

You want to eradicate an entire belief system followed by 2 billion people because of the actions of 4,800 people?

Why not just prefer that the separation of church and state was properly enforced?

Quote by: Isherwood Theists themselves speak of the life altering effect of religion. If belief doesn't affect a person, why does religion maintain that it does? Every religion I know of teaches that its followers are different from non-believers.

Those theists are making a choice. If every single theist felt that way, I would agree with your statement. But it's not every theist. I would even suggest (if I had support) that it's the minority of theists who feel that way. Then again, when I was younger I took a pilgrimage of sorts to the proverbial (and in one case literal) Mecca's of each religion.

And as an aside, religion doesn't teach anything. A person teaches something to another person or a person teaches themselves something. They derive what they are taught from religion, but the interpretation of relevance is all in their head.

Quote by: Isherwood Religious belief itself is what discourages believers from filtering out their beliefs from their social actions. Christianity in particular encourages its followers to include their belief in their every action.

"Encourage" and "discourage" seem more contextually accurate. But they don't force a person.

To use Christianity as an example, it basically encourages people to live their lives a certain way in the hopes of getting a reward that they have no proof of actually existing, let alone that they have earned. No sudden Final Fantasy battle victory sound bite to let you know you've now achieved the minimum requirements to enter heaven.

To follow the encouragement or teachings is their choice and their interpretation. Religion didn't do anything but "suggest", at best.

Quote by: Isherwood How is that an ignorant generalization?

I don't disagree with your statement. In fact, I wholly agree with you pointing out the Kennedy "scare."

The "ignorant generalization" is more in relation to this forum and the connection with a very general question about belief in God and connecting to irrelevant statements about the actions of religious believers.

I completely understand the points being made... that you all care and you are citing as your reason the actions of a handful of politicians. But does that mean every single one of the people on this planet who believe in God fall into that generalization?

That's the ignorance I'm talking about. Letting morons like Bush and his close-minded administration inspire a rant about the problems with religious belief. That's the same as letting terrorists from 9/11 suddenly be cause for Muslim hate. It's choosing to villainize a group based on the actions of a handful of people who are out of favor with the rest of people in that group.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH You want to eradicate an entire belief system followed by 2 billion people because of the actions of 4,800 people?

Only 4800 people in America vote according to their Christian morality? I find that extremely difficult to believe.

People will vote for what they think is right, and what they think is right will be, for most Christians, derived from Christian teachings. Christian teachings are based on false premises and the votes of these Christians are therefore going towards a false cause. That is the problem we have with Christianity.

[ZNFYRH]

And you voicing your problem with Christianity is exactly the kind of topical ignorance I mentioned before.

What does your problem with American Christians have to do with the 4.8 billion people in the world who believe in God?

[rez]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Only 4800 people in America vote according to their Christian morality? I find that extremely difficult to believe. People will vote for what they think is right, and what they think is right will be, for most Christians, derived from Christian teachings. Christian teachings are based on false premises and the votes of these Christians are therefore going towards a false cause. That is the problem we have with Christianity.

Let us be more clear here so ZNFYRH can understand. The basic premise of religion is that one must choose which religion to believe in. As for the 3 major religions, their followers have chosen one particular religion and rejected all the all religions. A Christian rejects Islam just like he or she rejects Hinduism and Judaism. When you ask a Muslim why they reject Christianity, they will give you all the reasons in the world just like a Christian would give all the reasons in the world why they reject Islam. However, the reasons are obviously backwards based on the premise that they have no viable evidence to actually accept one religion over the other. So as you can see, picking a religion is based on self-foolery, so when people try to make excuses and rationalize why their religion is the truth it becomes apparent they are using lies to fool the non-believes into believing what they believe.

The basic premise of religion is based on a lie and that is why religion is retarded.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio America has never been a secular country,

Hello. I'm history. I chronicle true things that happened in the past. Have we met?

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel [atheist] of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom (emphasis mine)

Christians have a long and dazzling tradition of re-writing history so Vicchio's blunder, while sad, is not surprising.

Unlike England (our parent country), America has no established state religion and has always been a secular nation.

When Christians allege America isn't a secular nation, I can't help but wonder what their basis of comparison is. What are they hoping for? A taliban-like pre-invasion Afghanistan? Perhaps the more moderate Malaysia where stating one is longer a Muslim is still grounds for murder? There is an American taliban who is actively seeking to re-write history and turn America into a theocracy where things like bing gay will not only be illegal, but will be punishable by death as in the old testament.

And people wonder why we care why others are religious.

[Zhavric]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Amazing. Two of the most articulate posters I've seen on this forum both being ignorant in the context of the opening post.

Shame on you, Darts, for letting ZNF get away with this evasion. Address the issues we brought up or do not, but don't you dare accuse Darts or I of 'ignorance'.

Both of you are doing the same thing as Zinkovich... you're talking about people acting on their belief. Neither of you really answered the topical question but instead went on to villainize religion.

Yes. We are talking about people acting on their belief. That's the problem with religion: it's a tool that can be used to motivate decent people into committing atrocities. I have no problem with a person who states "I think Zeus / Jesus / Gravitus / FSM / etc. was cool." My level of ire increases steadly as these individuals make more and more unsupported truth claims and embrace more and more ignorance.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH And you voicing your problem with Christianity is exactly the kind of topical ignorance I mentioned before. What does your problem with American Christians have to do with the 4.8 billion people in the world who believe in God?

It's not a problem exclusive to American Christians; it's a problem with any absolutist morality regardless of location. That's why Christianity is a worldwide problem.

[ZNFYRH]

You guys are all so charged up and ready to bash Christianity that you don't realize how pointless your posts are in this thread.

rez,

I absolutely agree that religion is based on lies, for the very same reasons of exclusion that you yourself mentioned. But this thread isn't about religion, it's about believing in God.

Think of it like parenting. Since not all people who have kids believe in being good parents, we'll compare "believe in being good parents" with "believe in God", for the purposes of this analogy.

One could ask, "Why do you care if people believe in being good parents?"

The answer you gave is that, regardless of the belief in being a good parenting, all of them are foolish for rejecting one method over another.

Do you see the parallel?

The question is simply about choosing to believe, not about how they believe.

That's a critical difference that is being glossed over by the oh-so-passionate atheists in this thread so far.

Quote by: Zhavric Shame on you, Darts, for letting ZNF get away with this evasion. Address the issues we brought up or do not, but don't you dare accuse Darts or I of 'ignorance'.

You brought up issues that are irrelevant to the context of the opening post and topic of the thread. Since I stated that your post was irrelevant, how can you expect me to want to further derail the thread by engaging your points in discussion? I'm fully aware that I didn't respond and now you know the precise reason why.

Quote by: Zhavric That's the problem with religion: it's a tool that can be used to motivate decent people into committing atrocities.

Accurate. Religion is the tool and it's other people using it... I agree.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the simpler, more general question regarding belief in God.

::points to the thread topic::

Quote by: Bacon That's why Christianity is a worldwide problem.

So 33% of the people of the world are Christian and you think they are causing a worldwide problem. Now tell me what that has to do with having a problem with people believing in God?

No offense, but you guys are making this too easy. You seem to really really want to get off your chests your current epiphanies about the problems with religion, but this isn't about religion.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH So 33% of the people of the world are Christian and you think they are causing a worldwide problem.

When their influence is concentrated on small areas or specific governments, particularly the most powerful governments, yes it is a problem from an atheist's point of view.

Quote by: ZNFYRH Now tell me what that has to do with having a problem with people believing in God?

It's not a belief in God specifically; it's the morality that comes with it, as I've already explained. This thread is about the entire religion; not the belief in God specifically. Try reading the OP rather than just the title.

[ZNFYRH]

I read the OP. It doesn't specify Christianity. It asks why non-believers feel that things need to be "their way."

Quote by: Bacon It's not a belief in God specifically

So what is your answer to whether or not you care about people believing in God?

[The Bacon Guy]

About belief in God specifically, I don't really care, though I enjoy debating it.

About religions with absolute moral guidelines, which was specified in the OP, I do care for the reasons previously outlined. I know it didn't specify Christianity; I was using it as an example so that I didn't have to keep saying "a religion with absolute moral guidelines".

[ZNFYRH]

Bacon,

It can be fun to debate casually until you run into someone who believes either side is absolutely true.

And I agree with you about "religions with absolute moral guidelines" and thank you for finally specifying that you were using Christianity as an example and not as being wholly representative.

Do you think there are religions without absolute moral guidelines?

And do you think it's possible to believe in God without following a religion?

I think the answer to both questions is "yes".

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: Zhavric Hello. I'm history. I chronicle true things that happened in the past. Have we met? Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel [atheist] of every denomination. -Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom (emphasis mine) Christians have a long and dazzling tradition of re-writing history so Vicchio's blunder, while sad, is not surprising. Unlike England (our parent country), America has no established state religion and has always been a secular nation. When Christians allege America isn't a secular nation, I can't help but wonder what their basis of comparison is. What are they hoping for? A taliban-like pre-invasion Afghanistan? Perhaps the more moderate Malaysia where stating one is longer a Muslim is still grounds for murder? There is an American taliban who is actively seeking to re-write history and turn America into a theocracy where things like bing gay will not only be illegal, but will be punishable by death as in the old testament. And people wonder why we care why others are religious.

Yes, please explain why prayer was a common and usual part of daily business of.. oh every congressional session... yeah the Founders sure hated that whole "Religion in Government" bit. People like you abuse Jefferson's quotes out of context and ignore the daily routine of business in American Government from 1776-1945.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Do you think there are religions without absolute moral guidelines?

Well, a religion is just really just a belief in a higher power, so moral absolutism isn't a requirement. I think religion would tend to lead to belief in moral absolutes, since people believing in a higher power would naturally believe that he is better than them, and that emulating him is therefore right in an absolute sense. I don't think this is the case in 100% of religions, but I think it can be common.

Quote by: ZNFYRH And do you think it's possible to believe in God without following a religion?

Religion: a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Since, by this definition, the only requirement for religion is that one believes in a higher power, I don't think it is, in the strictest sense, possible to believe in God and be non-religious. It's perfectly possible and common to believe in God and not be part of an organised religion.

[bishop]

Quote by: vicchio They opposed a state sponsored RELIGION that forced all Americans to believe and act according to one religions views, and that's where people like you are both disingenuous, and dangerous. You preach a false conception of America an harm the very bedrock and history of this country. People like you disgust me.

the feeling's 100% mutual.

if christian evangelicals want to push legislation such as creationism unto the public, then the state is effectively sponsoring a religion. if evangelicals want to legislate discrimination against gays because of purely religious reasons, then the state is effectively sponsoring a religion. if a muslim government outlawed the sale/handling of pork, then the state is effectively sponsoring a religion.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Nice Bishop, but no it's not, only people like you that trash the Constitution and want to set up a "North America Europe" believe that crap. Why don't you folks just move on over there instead of trying to ruin what we have here?

[Matt W]

Tone it down, people. Mr V, deal with the topic at hand, don't attack other members.

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.