Why do you care if people believe in God?

[ZNFYRH]

First, to answer the thread...

I really don't care at all. It doesn't "tell me something about someone" whether they believe or not. The only thing that might matter is their reason for believing and/or how they act based on that belief.

Belief itself doesn't matter to me.

Secondly...

Quote by: Zinkovich It's what I am forced not to be able to do equally that upsets me. "Who cares if I want equal financial rights as a homosexual?"- obviously most of your brethren do.

That's not any specific religion doing that. It's politicians doing it.

Quote by: Zinkovich I do not want to change the world to fit my viewpoint, I want it to change in a way that tolerates my lifestyle.

This confused me. How are those two different?

Quote by: Zinkovich Follow the source motivation of most of those in political power doing the repressing in this nation as of this moment, and you will find religion in some form or another.

Here you have it right. No church is telling them what to do, they are making that choice on their own. I guess if we didn't want political leaders who regard a book of parables as a guiding document we shouldn't have elected them.

Quote by: Zinkovich Meanwhile, atheists such as myself(as in, not all, before anyone nitpicks ) do not mean to restrict anyone's rights nor their freedoms, because they are not absolutists.

You don't mean to, but apparently not enough of you get up and take action to prevent it.

Quote by: Zinkovich Others do not have any duty to change for me if they do not wish

Liar. You just wrote that you wanted the world to change to fit your lifestyle. Which is it?

Zinkovich,

You completely misconstrued the point of the opening post. You just gave a lot of reasons why you care if people act on their belief in God. I hope you can acknowledge and distinguish between the difference in believing in something and actually acting on it.

Maybe you made a mistake in your post?

You basically just roped 80% of the world into your own little point of view based on the actions of, it would seem, half the political representatives in the U.S. Let's look at that for a second... making a statement about 4.8 billion people in the world based on the actions of 0.00001% of that group.

Or to put it another way... you mention gay rights in your post. How strange that you criticize one group for generalizing about another when you do exactly the same thing?

The contradictions in your post and the apparent fact that you went off on actions and not simply belief makes your post rather pointless in relation to the question.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: Mr.Vicchio Seriously. The anti-religion threads around here are chock full of smug anti-religious zealots out to prove how right they are. WHO CARES what someone else believes in.

No more than there are pro-religious "zelots" out to prove their particular god is the right god. Is it safe to assume that you only believe in one god? If so, then you are just as zealous towards everyone elses god. You don't believe in them why? You only believe in one more god than I do. So you won't mind if we put "In Vishnu we trust" on all of our money because you don't care what people believe? Great!

Oh I know, the old cop out: "I care when they force their religion on me!"

It's pretty safe to say that you'd be pretty upset if we taught Astrology along with Astronomy, or Alchemy along with Chemistry in our schools just like some christians want I.D. taught along with Evolution in our schools.

Yeah okay, heads up people, first off, unless you are forced to attend their church, you aren't being forced to do ANYTHING.

Tell that to the schools in Kansas, Ohio, Kentucky who are trying to get I.D. taught in their schools. Tell that to the heads at the Grand Canyon National Park who can't sell material that states the geologic age of the Grand Canyon because "Someone" thinks it was created by Noah's Flood. What about my money? Which god is that? Is it Vishnu? Zeus? Ra? What about the Pledge? What god is that? Do you really think nothing is being forced upon us? When us "anti-religious zelots" fight to keep church and state separated, we are fighting fo you as well. We don't want IN Allah we trust on our money any more than you do. We are fighting for everyones equal rights, not just ours, or yours.

Secondly, religious minded people that have a moral guidance they find in their religion, doesn't mean they are "forcing their religious beliefs on you". What religiously minded people do is voice their opinions through their elected representatives and laws are passed. Don't like it? Consider this, what you want to do, change the world to fit your view point, is NO DIFFERENT then what they are doing.

Oh really? So you won't mind that in time, Gays will be allowed to marry and expect to have the same rights as everyone else? Don't Like it? Hmmm fancy that. YOUR moral guidance isn't all that moral when it excludes people you don't like or excludes the actions of others. Many of my morals come from your guidence, the bible, but in actuallity none of the morals in the bible are unique to the bible and there is nothing to say they didn't exist prior to the bible. The one thing your moral guidence doesn't teach well is tolerance of others. You think being gay is a sin so gay people shouldn't be allowed certain rights, because its a sin. As an athiest, I realize that being gay is a natural occurance in many species of animals, including Humans and therefore Humans should be given equal rights and protection under the law. We may seem zealous to you, but your entire post reaks of a zealot basically asking us to STFU.

YOU are hoping to force others to accept YOUR way America (or where ever you are) to live according to your beliefs.

Please provide evidence of this claim or retract it. Athiest, are not forcing you to believe anything. We lack belief in the existence of your god, nothing more, nothing less.

So suck it up and realize that your actions would be NO DIFFERENT then what is all ready the case, so what makes you so right? Why should others change for you?

What actions are you refering too? Why should we teach I.D. in schools and not teach Alchemy?

Because you are "Right" and they are religious fools believing in a fairy tale? At least their "Fairy Tale" is a set of morals and codes that we can all understand, what are your beliefs based on, aside personal opinion? Think about that.

You don't think that your morals and codes aren't nothing more than opinion of anncient times? Oh thats right, you think an invisable friend in the sky some how talks to people, and thats not a fairytail.

My morals come from a thing called a conscience. I feel bad when I hurt others, I feel good when I help others. If I want to have consensual sex before a marriage, who am I hurting? No one. I don't steal not because a book tells me its wrong, I know that it hurts the owner of said property, my conscience tells me this is wrong. Its not opinion, it is the moral compass that lives within most people. Whats the difference between a "good christian" and a "good atheist"? One god and his intolerant rules.

Extraodinary claims require extraordinary evidence, for which no religion has been able to produce.

As far as what you believe? I don't care. Its how your beliefs affect others that concerns me.

[Zhavric]

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

-Steven Weinberg

WHO CARES what someone else believes in.

I can't imagine.

Religion is an institution that indoctrinates individuals from the time they can speak to believe that certain absurdities should be believed without justification or evidence. It leads to adults who actively believe in fairy tales. While many would dismiss the above link as the work of extremists, understand that moderate religion is the breeding ground for extremism.

Religion is something we'd be far better off without. That's why I care.

[ZNFYRH]

Amazing.

Two of the most articulate posters I've seen on this forum both being ignorant in the context of the opening post.

Both of you are doing the same thing as Zinkovich... you're talking about people acting on their belief. Neither of you really answered the topical question but instead went on to villainize religion.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Amazing. Two of the most articulate posters I've seen on this forum both being ignorant in the context of the opening post. Both of you are doing the same thing as Zinkovich... you're talking about people acting on their belief. Neither of you really answered the topical question but instead went on to villainize religion.

It's par for the course around here, don't let it get to you.


Zinkovich, I'm a conservative, I'm a Christian, you know my stance on gays, I also really am against Gay Marriage.... BUT I am for "Civil Unions" that grant pretty much the same legal rights as "Marriage" without the tag of "Married".

Why parse the difference? SIMPLE, most people in America for example, are religious to some degree or another, and in EVERY state it's been tried, the thought of two men or two women making a Married Couple, ain't gonna fly. Sorry gang it ain't gonna happen. Accept that, and move on. Go for civil unions and you will get a much more open response from people like me.

But you miss the point, you wish to force the country to accept "Gay Marriage", how is that different then the country rejecting "Gay Marriage"? Seriously?

Zhavric, so you believe all religious minded people are morons and will commit acts of violence on that belief? Fascinating insight into you bigoted mind.

[Zinkovich]

Zinkovich, I'm a conservative, I'm a Christian, you know my stance on gays, I also really am against Gay Marriage.... BUT I am for "Civil Unions" that grant pretty much the same legal rights as "Marriage" without the tag of "Married". Why parse the difference? SIMPLE, most people in America for example, are religious to some degree or another, and in EVERY state it's been tried, the thought of two men or two women making a Married Couple, ain't gonna fly. Sorry gang it ain't gonna happen. Accept that, and move on. Go for civil unions and you will get a much more open response from people like me.

Good, I can go for that. The main issue I hold with this entire thing is the personal and financial issues brought upon me by the state-sponsored discrimintion directed towards me and my partner, as well as the whole community.

But you miss the point, you wish to force the country to accept "Gay Marriage", how is that different then the country rejecting "Gay Marriage"? Seriously?

One is giving a right, and one is taking away.

Paint my argument any way you like, score petty points any way you like- I am not against the rejection of homosexual unions out of ignorance, but experience. The stupid shit I have had to deal with concerning visitation rights at hospitals, with wills, with my family, etc., etc. before we were wealthy enough to hire a lawyer to draw up the (expensive)papers needed to bypass only some of those laws is ridiculous.

[ItsDarts]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Amazing. Two of the most articulate posters I've seen on this forum both being ignorant in the context of the opening post. Both of you are doing the same thing as Zinkovich... you're talking about people acting on their belief. Neither of you really answered the topical question but instead went on to villainize religion.

Zink and I did answer the OP, We don't care what you believe. We then proceded to argue against the rest of the post in proper context, point by point. What part of the context didn't we get right? You can say we argued out of context all you want, it doesn't make it so. Please feel free to show us what parts are irrelevant and how they are out of context from the OP?

[bishop]

i don't care if people believe in god... i happen to believe in god myself, although i normally never feel the need to broadcast it around. i also believe that religion has no place in politics and resist any urge to move away from secularism.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: ItsDarts No more than there are pro-religious "zelots" out to prove their particular god is the right god. Is it safe to assume that you only believe in one god? If so, then you are just as zealous towards everyone elses god. You don't believe in them why? You only believe in one more god than I do. So you won't mind if we put "In Vishnu we trust" on all of our money because you don't care what people believe? Great!

What an astoundingly weak argument. Does it cause you any discomfort to have "In God Wee Trust" on money? Seriously, if most of your fellow Americans DO believe in God as per the Judeo-Christian tradition of the Country, isn't it a tad arrogant of you to demand it be removed for your minority? Does that line mean you have to believe in God? Or are you really that intolerant of others?

Quote by: ItsDarts It's pretty safe to say that you'd be pretty upset if we taught Astrology along with Astronomy, or Alchemy along with Chemistry in our schools just like some christians want I.D. taught along with Evolution in our schools.

Evolution is a theory, it really is. People believe in I.D., some are laymen, some are scientist, they have a view and wish to express it. What's wrong with that? SERIOUSLY, what's wrong with that other then you reject that line of thought? You are right I would reject some of those views you listed, and would do so at the voting booth and local hearings on the matter. But if the majority wanted it, well that's how the country works.

Quote by: ItsDarts Tell that to the schools in Kansas, Ohio, Kentucky who are trying to get I.D. taught in their schools. Tell that to the heads at the Grand Canyon National Park who can't sell material that states the geologic age of the Grand Canyon because "Someone" thinks it was created by Noah's Flood. What about my money? Which god is that? Is it Vishnu? Zeus? Ra? What about the Pledge? What god is that? Do you really think nothing is being forced upon us? When us "anti-religious zelots" fight to keep church and state separated, we are fighting fo you as well. We don't want IN Allah we trust on our money any more than you do. We are fighting for everyones equal rights, not just ours, or yours.

There is no seperation of church and state in the constitution, try reading it again, here, I'll help you:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now, again, how does a school teaching something "religious" constitute Congress Passing a Law? It doesn't, and issues like a school prayer before a football game being banned, something that STILL chaps my hide, is a denial of religious expression a clearly stated right. And please spare me the Thomas Jefferson speech and anything about the idiots on the SC, they also passed the Kelo decision allowing the state to take your property and give it to some rich guy to develop for higher taxes. The SC ain't perfect.

Quote by: ItsDarts Oh really? So you won't mind that in time, Gays will be allowed to marry and expect to have the same rights as everyone else? Don't Like it? Hmmm fancy that. YOUR moral guidance isn't all that moral when it excludes people you don't like or excludes the actions of others. Many of my morals come from your guidence, the bible, but in actuallity none of the morals in the bible are unique to the bible and there is nothing to say they didn't exist prior to the bible. The one thing your moral guidence doesn't teach well is tolerance of others. You think being gay is a sin so gay people shouldn't be allowed certain rights, because its a sin. As an athiest, I realize that being gay is a natural occurance in many species of animals, including Humans and therefore Humans should be given equal rights and protection under the law. We may seem zealous to you, but your entire post reaks of a zealot basically asking us to STFU.

I love this Tolerance line, look there are some ass hats on the Christian Side that take that whole "Gay" thing a bit too far, I will not deny that, but then are people like you that are no different just on the other end. Personally I think Fred Phelps wants nothing more then to be a gay slut but he's too scared of his own desires. Seriously I do believe that.

Quote by: ItsDarts Please provide evidence of this claim or retract it. Athiest, are not forcing you to believe anything. We lack belief in the existence of your god, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm not going to retract that, you atheist demand that America reject public acknowledgment of religious beliefs and traditions because YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THEM! YOUR demands are that society change to meet your needs, no different then what is currently the case.

Quote by: ItsDarts What actions are you refering too? Why should we teach I.D. in schools and not teach Alchemy?

Strawman, and pointless.

Quote by: ItsDarts You don't think that your morals and codes aren't nothing more than opinion of anncient times? Oh thats right, you think an invisable friend in the sky some how talks to people, and thats not a fairytail.

Now you show your bigotry and hate, your intolerance of others beliefs. Way to go, prove my point.

Quote by: ItsDarts My morals come from a thing called a conscience. I feel bad when I hurt others, I feel good when I help others. If I want to have consensual sex before a marriage, who am I hurting? No one. I don't steal not because a book tells me its wrong, I know that it hurts the owner of said property, my conscience tells me this is wrong. Its not opinion, it is the moral compass that lives within most people. Whats the difference between a "good christian" and a "good atheist"? One god and his intolerant rules.

You have your beliefs, you demand that the majority accept those beliefs based on what YOU think is RIGHT. Well you missed my point, you want US to accept your beliefs, and be forced to live by what YOU think is right.

Do you not see the irony of your position yet?

Quote by: ItsDarts Extraodinary claims require extraordinary evidence, for which no religion has been able to produce. As far as what you believe? I don't care. Its how your beliefs affect others that concerns me.

Your beliefs would effect me and other religious minded people, how is that different then the current situation, it's not except that you are the minority and cannot handle it, like a spoiled child you scream, like a spoiled child you stomp your feet and demand we do what YOU want us to do, you throw a tantrum until America is molded in your image.

No different then religious minded people expressing their view of how society should be. You just pretend that you have moral high ground because you reject God.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: bishop i don't care if people believe in god... i happen to believe in god myself, although i normally never feel the need to broadcast it around. i also believe that religion has no place in politics and resist any urge to move away from secularism.

America has never been a secular country, it helps to know what the Constitution actually says, what the founding fathers actually intended. IF the country was meant to be secular, they wouldn't have ya know... had prayers before the senate opened... stuff like that.

They opposed a state sponsored RELIGION that forced all Americans to believe and act according to one religions views, and that's where people like you are both disingenuous, and dangerous. You preach a false conception of America an harm the very bedrock and history of this country. People like you disgust me.

[ZNFYRH]

ItsDarts,

Anything beyond, "I don't care what you believe unless you act on it" is irrelevant.

Not that I think that's the only answer.

Hell, someone could say, "I care if people believe because believing in God tells me that a person isn't intelligent" and it's a valid answer about why.

You guys just really got into the actions you don't like, but you were both making the presumption that all people who believe in God are suddenly American Christian political activists.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH You guys just really got into the actions you don't like, but you were both making the presumption that all people who believe in God are suddenly American Christian political activists.

Not every Christian has to be politically active in order for Christian politics to have a significant effect on the country. If people did not hold Christian beliefs, nobody would be making, what is from an atheist's point of view, decisions based on false premises. That's why we care.

[Mr.Vicchio]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Not every Christian has to be politically active in order for Christian politics to have a significant effect on the country. If people did not hold Christian beliefs, nobody would be making, what is from an atheist's point of view, decisions based on false premises. That's why we care.

That's rather arrogant of you, to presume that your view point is more valid then ours because you believe it to be so, you have faith in your belief thus you think your beliefs should trump all other.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Vicchio That's rather arrogant of you, to presume that your view point is more valid then ours because you believe it to be so, you have faith in your belief thus you think your beliefs should trump all other.

Do you believe that your Christian beliefs are correct?

[ZNFYRH]

That's a silly question.

Would someone have a belief they thought was incorrect?

[Jack]

Quote by: ItsDarts You don't think that your morals and codes aren't nothing more than opinion of anncient times? Oh thats right, you think an invisable friend in the sky some how talks to people, and thats not a fairytail.

Now you show your bigotry and hate, your intolerance of others beliefs. Way to go, prove my point.

Bigotry, hate? Why do I keep seeing Christians claiming that we hate them simply because we don't agree with them? The only part of "invisible friend in the sky" that might be inaccurate when describing the Christian god is "in the sky". Most Christians have no idea where god lives.

When the majority of people still believe in something that has no basis in reality, something that causes as much strife and misery throughout the world as religion has and can't offer a shred of credible evidence to support its extraordinary claims, that worries me. When we have leaders with WMDs at their disposal believing that someone no one else can see or hear is telling them what to do it worries me. Since there is no universal constant to this god character, how do Christians know that the god whispering in their leader's ears is the same god they worship? Should America only accept the Christian god, should we endorse the Catholic belief system over the Baptist one? Whose god gets the official endorsement of the country?

When people try to tell me that it's perfectly normal for reasoning adults to believe in something as fantastic as the notion of gods but someone who believes that dogs can talk to them is mentally unstable, I have to wonder.

If the religious kept their beliefs to themselves and didn't try to legislate them into law, I'd be happier. I don't want our government to endorse atheism, nor do I want them endorsing any particular religious sect. I want them to be religion-neutral. Laws should reflect the purpose of government, to protect its citizens and provide for a peaceful society.

I care what you believe because what you believe affects my life in several negative ways. And your willingly embraced, totally unsupported belief in gods shouldn't impact my life at all. There are many examples of how religion affects the lives of non-believers in this country. How does not believing in gods affect your life, except when we oppose the theist's efforts to turn the U.S. into a weak theocracy?

That's rather arrogant of you, to presume that your view point is more valid then ours because you believe it to be so, you have faith in your belief thus you think your beliefs should trump all other.

How ironic.

[ZNFYRH]

Quote by: Isherwood I care what you believe because what you believe affects my life in several negative ways.

Is Mr. Vicchio a politician enacting legislation that directly effects you?

A belief doesn't effect a person. A person effects a person.

Somewhere in each of us is a filtering between what we believe and how we act.

Your angst is misdirect, Isherwood. The belief does nothing. Where you should be most concerned is with the person who, for whatever reason, doesn't filter their belief out of their actions in situations where their belief has no place.

Consider this:

"Why do you care if someone is a Muslim?"

If you were to respond (as an example), "Because what Muslims believe cost me my brother in 9/11" would that be a correct statement?

Was it the belief in Islam that made them do what they did, or was it their filtering process that led them to take extreme action?

And again, you seem to be turning "belief in God" into "Christian politician" like everyone else.

I could easily ask why people who claim to be rational and intelligent Atheists make such an ignorant generalization and leap of reasoning to take a question about believing in God and suddenly think it means "the current American Republican administration".

Again, you're voicing an opinion about 4.8 billion people based on the actions of about 4,800. I'd like to think you're intelligent enough for such a gross faux pas to be a mistake. Mistakes can be corrected.

But if you truly believe that, you're no better than those who you are so quick to criticize.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH That's a silly question. Would someone have a belief they thought was incorrect?

Of course not; I was illustrating the absurdity of Vicchio's statement.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: ZNFYRH And again, you seem to be turning "belief in God" into "Christian politician" like everyone else.

Nobody was claiming that belief in God leads in every case to Christian politicians. The point is that Christian politics would not exist were it not for Christian beliefs. Atheists don't want Christian politics to exist because it is based, from our point of view, on false premises. Hence, we would prefer if Christianity did not exist.