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pam699 · Mar 25, 2007, 07:55 am

Is it allright for Iran to use such non-torture interagation technques as waterboarding on captive Western prisioner

Gods_Mercenary · Mar 25, 2007, 07:56 am

If it's alright for the U.S., of course, not all of us agree with that.

Laharl · Mar 25, 2007, 08:22 am

Well, in all honesty, I guess it's ok. I'm not a war monger or anything of that sort but, war is war. The Iraqi's and most likely everyone else in the middle east would probably do worse to us.

DEEJ85 · Mar 26, 2007, 09:47 am

well I'm undecided on this one. Although I believe we need to be protected against people that want to harm us, I'm not sure if I would feel the same way if i was the same person being tortured.

I think you are begging the question a bit. How is water boarding, non-torture?
If you define torture as the intentional causing of suffering in another person. and if water boarding causes a person to suffer ( I assume it does cause pain or suffering. otherwise why would we use it) Then water boarding is torture.

I think you might have meant is it ok to use methods that do not cause permanent harm or death.

Of course I could be off, as I only have a vague idea of what water boarding entails. but if it causes suffering or pain then it is torture.

Praxius · Mar 26, 2007, 11:45 am

If you call it "Non-Torture" then it should be fine then..... it's not torture.

tinybear · Mar 26, 2007, 12:09 pm

No, it's not alright because Iran captures innocent prisoners who have committed no wrong. They should be released forthwith or else!!!

Praxius · Mar 26, 2007, 03:49 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

No, it's not alright because Iran captures innocent prisoners who have committed no wrong. They should be released forthwith or else!!!

So did the US...... but hey.... it doesn't seem to matter for them.

Hmm · Mar 26, 2007, 04:37 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

No, it's not alright because Iran captures innocent prisoners who have committed no wrong. They should be released forthwith or else!!!

And the United States hasn't been doing the exact same thing ever since the Iraq War began?

ZNFYRH · Mar 26, 2007, 04:46 pm

I agree with DEEJ85.

Waterboarding is torture, but it is non-permanent.

Personally I think non-permanent torture is an effective way to get information and should be used by any side willing to accept the international consequences.

Hmm · Mar 26, 2007, 04:48 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

I agree with DEEJ85.

Waterboarding is torture, but it is non-permanent.

Personally I think non-permanent torture is an effective way to get information and should be used by any side willing to accept the international consequences.

Torture has always been a way to get information. Whether or not that information is true is a whole different story, which is why torture is never the best option for getting what you want.

ZNFYRH · Mar 26, 2007, 06:05 pm

Very true.

I thought of that exact fact when I wrote "effective way to get information" and not "best option for getting what you want".

Zinkovich · Mar 26, 2007, 06:26 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Waterboarding is torture, but it is non-permanent.

If subjected to it day after day, I can almost guarantee you some major psychological problems will result.

Waterboarding simulates drowning. It is painful, and sets off all of the instinctual warnings in your brain that tells you that you could die if it continues for too long.

ZNFYRH · Mar 26, 2007, 07:37 pm

Any torture poses permanent psychological harm. If you wanted to go down that road, then all torture is potentially permanent.

Zinkovich · Mar 26, 2007, 07:48 pm

Quote:

Quote by: ZNFYRH

Any torture poses permanent psychological harm. If you wanted to go down that road, then all torture is potentially permanent.

Which is why it's morally questionable! Seems you already understand my point :)

ZNFYRH · Mar 26, 2007, 08:01 pm

I do indeed, if you want to bring in the psychological effects.

Even the threat of torture can the torture in itself.

As can just being held prisoner with no mention of torture but worrying yourself sick about it.

So then the fear of capture is just as torturous.

That means that being a soldier is torture.

Dammit!! The U.S. military is torturing American men and women!!!

tinybear · Mar 26, 2007, 11:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Hmm

And the United States hasn't been doing the exact same thing ever since the Iraq War began?

Please stick to the topic. It's about Iran using non-torture interrogation.

Praxius · Mar 27, 2007, 09:10 am

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

Please stick to the topic. It's about Iran using non-torture interrogation.

Please, don't avoid the question.

If the US is allowed to do this, among much worse things, just because Iran is not the US, you feel it shouldn't be allowed?

I feel it is related, mainly because you're judging one country unfairly.

brien · Mar 27, 2007, 02:05 pm

Quote:

Quote by: pam699

Is it allright for Iran to use such non-torture interagation technques as waterboarding on captive Western prisioner

One would expect every government in the world to adhere to the Geneva Protocols, but reality tells us otherwise. While some may think it is all right to torture prisoners, most modern governments at least condemn it in name, if not in practice. What really goes on behind prison walls both in the US and abroad, would sicken most observers.

tinybear · Mar 27, 2007, 02:38 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Praxius

Please, don't avoid the question.

If the US is allowed to do this, among much worse things, just because Iran is not the US, you feel it shouldn't be allowed?

I feel it is related, mainly because you're judging one country unfairly.

OK since you mentioned it, we're allowed to do it because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. Bad guys don't deserve humane treatment. They forfeited that privilege as soon as they became the bad guys.

It's quite simple. Guys who treat the law with contempt and blatantly flout it the first chance they get are not entitled to the protection of the law.

Praxius · Mar 27, 2007, 03:33 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

OK since you mentioned it, we're allowed to do it because we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. Bad guys don't deserve humane treatment. They forfeited that privilege as soon as they became the bad guys.

It's quite simple. Guys who treat the law with contempt and blatantly flout it the first chance they get are not entitled to the protection of the law.

Ummm..... Whoever said we we're the good guys? I'm sure Nazi Germany thought they were the good guys too.

And another thing, who's laws are they suppose to abide to? They're their own country, much like the US or Canada is.... would it be fair for them to impose their laws on us and since we don't want to follow their laws, we're now the bad guys?

You just said that "Bad guys don't deserve humane treatment." so with that reasoning, since the US is the "Good Guy" they should be allowed to treat anybody like an animal or worse, because they're the bad guy, regardless if they're innocent or not?

That's the same mentality that continues wars and fuels hatred between countries..... as soon as one country starts to think they're more superior to other countries, and start making decisions that they don't allow other countries to make, that's when you can expect people to blow your country up to keep you in your place.

Labeling the country you have hostilities with, aka: the enemy, as the "Bad Guys" is the moment you start to lose understanding about your enemy and their reasons for being against what you believe in. As soon as you close off all attempts to understanding the country in question, and just call them the bad guys, you forget the core reason for the conflict and then you have a battle that will go on forever...... just because their the bad guys and we're the good guys.

There are no good or bad, just different ways of life.

View Poll Results: Can Iran use interagation technques as waterboarding on western captives
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Mar 25, 2007, 07:55 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
pam699 BANNED Posts: 583	Is it alright for Iran to use non-torture interagation technques as waterboarding Is it allright for Iran to use such non-torture interagation technques as waterboarding on captive Western prisioner

Mar 25, 2007, 07:56 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Gods_Mercenary Altruism Assassin Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,260	If it's alright for the U.S., of course, not all of us agree with that. “Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.” -Albert Einstein

Mar 25, 2007, 08:22 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Laharl Havoc Posts: 4	Well, in all honesty, I guess it's ok. I'm not a war monger or anything of that sort but, war is war. The Iraqi's and most likely everyone else in the middle east would probably do worse to us. Knowledge is abundant wisdom is rare

Mar 26, 2007, 09:47 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
DEEJ85 Igneous Magma Posts: 261	well I'm undecided on this one. Although I believe we need to be protected against people that want to harm us, I'm not sure if I would feel the same way if i was the same person being tortured. I think you are begging the question a bit. How is water boarding, non-torture? If you define torture as the intentional causing of suffering in another person. and if water boarding causes a person to suffer ( I assume it does cause pain or suffering. otherwise why would we use it) Then water boarding is torture. I think you might have meant is it ok to use methods that do not cause permanent harm or death. Of course I could be off, as I only have a vague idea of what water boarding entails. but if it causes suffering or pain then it is torture. Beware of Logical Fallacies. See a list of them in the link below. http://home.mcn.net/~montanabw/fallacies.html

Mar 26, 2007, 11:45 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Praxius Mass'Debator Posts: 4,724	If you call it "Non-Torture" then it should be fine then..... it's not torture.

Mar 26, 2007, 12:09 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Hong Kong (for now) Posts: 7,017	No, it's not alright because Iran captures innocent prisoners who have committed no wrong. They should be released forthwith or else!!!

Mar 26, 2007, 04:46 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	I agree with DEEJ85. Waterboarding is torture, but it is non-permanent. Personally I think non-permanent torture is an effective way to get information and should be used by any side willing to accept the international consequences.

Mar 26, 2007, 06:05 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Very true. I thought of that exact fact when I wrote "effective way to get information" and not "best option for getting what you want".

Mar 26, 2007, 07:37 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	Any torture poses permanent psychological harm. If you wanted to go down that road, then all torture is potentially permanent.

Mar 26, 2007, 08:01 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
ZNFYRH Volcanic Erupter Posts: 4,375	I do indeed, if you want to bring in the psychological effects. Even the threat of torture can the torture in itself. As can just being held prisoner with no mention of torture but worrying yourself sick about it. So then the fear of capture is just as torturous. That means that being a soldier is torture. Dammit!! The U.S. military is torturing American men and women!!!