Is it alright for Iran to use non-torture interagation technques as waterboarding

[tinybear]

Don't be silly. The enemy is always the bad guy. We gotta believe in this otherwise we'll lose the war. Once you don't believe in your cause, all is lost.

If you're merciful to your enemy, you're not being merciful to yourself and your allies. Sounds cruel, but that's the harsh reality.

[Hmm]

Quote by: tinybear Don't be silly. The enemy is always the bad guy. We gotta believe in this otherwise we'll lose the war. Once you don't believe in your cause, all is lost. If you're merciful to your enemy, you're not being merciful to yourself and your allies. Sounds cruel, but that's the harsh reality.

So it is perfectly fine to use ("non") torture interrogation methods on any Iranian citizen, since Iran is our "enemy"?

[tinybear]

Quote by: Hmm So it is perfectly fine to use ("non") torture interrogation methods on any Iranian citizen, since Iran is our "enemy"?

Well, not any Iranian citizen at random. Waste of time and resources. Any Iranian reasonably suspected of being a threat to us or might provide us with info to substantially advance our cause. How's that sound? :)

[Praxius]

Quote by: tinybear Well, not any Iranian citizen at random. Waste of time and resources. Any Iranian reasonably suspected of being a threat to us or might provide us with info to substantially advance our cause. How's that sound? :)

So if you stepped accross the border and I have an informant say that you are spying on our country's operations, I should be able to take you off the streets, interogate you and tourture you as I see fit, because I now deem you the enemy.... aka: the bad guy and I should be able to do this as longs I see fit until you confess to what I want to hear?

So with your method of understanding, you do not have any human rights to protect you from my wrath.

I dunno... sounds a bit hypocritical if you ask me.

Don't be silly. The enemy is always the bad guy. We gotta believe in this otherwise we'll lose the war. Once you don't believe in your cause, all is lost. If you're merciful to your enemy, you're not being merciful to yourself and your allies. Sounds cruel, but that's the harsh reality.

And that reasoning is why wars continue for a long period of time.... so long as you continue to act and appear to be ruthless and evil to your enemy, the more they will continue to resist you.

There are usually only two ways to end a war.... peace or absolute devestation to one of the sides in question. Peace talks and methods of trying to figure out what started the war in the first place is a lot better for everyone, then to just continue shooting and killing until one side is destroyed.... which can take years, decades or longer to do... depending on the hatred.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Praxius So if you stepped accross the border and I have an informant say that you are spying on our country's operations, I should be able to take you off the streets, interogate you and tourture you as I see fit, because I now deem you the enemy.... aka: the bad guy and I should be able to do this as longs I see fit until you confess to what I want to hear?

It has to be a very credible informant or a credible source of info. Like I said if you wrongly arrest an innocent guy, all your interrogation is a waste of time.

[Praxius]

Quote by: tinybear It has to be a very credible informant or a credible source of info. Like I said if you wrongly arrest an innocent guy, all your interrogation is a waste of time.

Yeah the US Government said the same thing about the WMD in Iraq.... we all know how that went down.

What's going on in Cuba in the detention centres is a perfect example of what you're trying to argue.... many of those detainies are probably innocent, but many are confessing just for the sake of getting out of that hole they are living in..... that doesn't make them actually guilty though.

What they're doing in Gu'at is the US doing what they want with these prisoners, torturing them, degrading them, and making them live in very very harsh conditions, all for the sake of making them confess that they did something, regardless if they actually did..... and by them using this method, they can easily say "Look they confessed, the system works"

While if I did the same thing to you, tortured you, made you live in a shitty state, and degrade you every chance I get..... I imagine after 3-4 years of this, you'd confess to something too..... then I could say my system worked.

And you said it has to come from some crediable source.... but the way the US gov. has everything so screwed up, they don't need to explain where or how they got their information.... so it could be complete crap that they have on people, and they're just picking these guys as scape goats to prove to everyone that they're doing the "Right Thing" ~ And with this same reasoning, I could keep you detained for as long as I like, and I wouldn't have to present any evidence to you in regards to why I have you..... you wouldn't have a lawyer, you wouldn't have your day in court.

Before you start to judge what countries can or can not do certain things, perhaps your own country should lead by example.

[tinybear]

So we need to improve on intelligence gathering. Doesn't mean the principle's wrong. When it comes to dealing with the enemy, you do everything by the book and nothing gets done.

[Praxius]

Quote by: tinybear So we need to improve on intelligence gathering. Doesn't mean the principle's wrong. When it comes to dealing with the enemy, you do everything by the book and nothing gets done.

Then when you don't do everything by the book, you get what we have now.... governments infringing on citizen's rights, privacy, adding restrictions, etc... once you throw the book out for one thing, what's stopping your country from throwing it out for everything? Apparently nothing, as we're seeing.

If the intelligence gathering is flawed, then so too is the principle. The "Book" is there for a reason..... to prevent what's going on now in the world....

[tinybear]

When dealing with our own people and with citizens of our allies, we go by the book. :)

[Praxius]

Quote by: tinybear When dealing with our own people and with citizens of our allies, we go by the book. :)

Soory, but I can't agree with that understanding.... if you want less enemies in the world, wouldn't you want to show them that they can be treated just as equally as the rest of your own citizens, thus making them favor you over their own system of oppression?

The problem right now is that countries such as Iraq, Iran, N.Korea, etc. view the US and their allies as evil opressors of the Muslim culture (-N.Korea in that Muslim factor) because that is how you are acting..... they don't know the overall good intentions you and your country have in their goals..... and you don't know their overall good intentions for what they are doing, thus continually causing no relation to one another, and the fighting continues. All you are seeing is the end results of their actions in the news...

You have Bush calling everying the "Evil Doers" and all that... so if I get labeled by him as an Evil Doer and he sends troops after me.... I am pretty sure I wouldn't be to happy... much like your "Enemies" arn't too happy.

Just remember how all of this started.... the story goes that the Taliban in Afghanistan were responsible for 9/11..... then Bush and your military went on a frigging "Crusade" as he called it, all over Afghanistan, Iraq, and now soon Iran and probably shortly after N. Korea..... who made your enemies larger? Bush and his method of maddness like detaining people indefinatly and not allowing them lawyers and fair trial, oh yeah.... and your torture techniques you feel you should be allowed to do, but nobody else is.

The main reason why the majority of the Muslim world hates the US is because of the hypocritical methods you guys use, and the lunatic you have in power.....

[tinybear]

I don't get it. Why are we being accused of being hypocrites? Our position is quite clear: We treat our friends well and, as far as our enemies are concerned, we kick ass. Nothing hypocritical about that, is there?

[Praxius]

The hypocracy lies in the fact you guys identify who your enemies are, by what they do, when the things your own government does are almost the same methods.

Your enemies are those who are terrorists and who kill civilians, and yet your own troops are being reported for friendly fire, crazy unco-ordinated defense stratigies like when those Marines in Afghanistan were shooting wildly at every moving vehicle and ones not moving, killing and wounding many civilians, the reported rapings and murders of civilians in Iraq, the detentions of people you deem are terrorists and revoking any human rights they may have, guilty or not.... while arguing that these countries and terrorists you are fighting do the same things, but your country doesn't, when it's proven it does. You're country invades another passive country which posed no threat (Iraq) Your president and your country preach about democracy and freedom and to keep it safe, when your own president doesn't listen to the people of the country, plays with his own agenda, restricting privacy of the common citizen, building up armed borders with Canada, mile long fences, blackhawk helicopters patrolling the border, asking for passports for anybody entering the country..... police units, CIA, FBI, and other organizations tapping into your phones, reading your mail, spying on your computers, etc etc..... it all seems pretty hypocritical to me.

As you said, treating your friends great and your enemies worse.... that smells of high school drama to me, not international communication skills.

[Gods_Mercenary]

International relations is High school, just with guns and bigger douchebags who think it's anything different.

[tinybear]

I don't agree with a lot of what the current President does or says. I just think we should quit being hypocritical and come right out and speak our minds: "No, we don't want to treat everyone equally. We only want to be nice to our allies. We don't want to be nice to our enemies. As far as they are concerned, the kid gloves are off and anything goes". :)

[Wizzle]

Interesting that waterboarding is called 'non-torture'. Sounds fairly tortuous to me.

[Gods_Mercenary]

It's called that because it doesn't cause any permanent physical damage, and is far "cleaner" than other, more bloody, forms of torture. It is torture in the sense that you cause physical and mental distress until you get what you want.

[Wizzle]

Pschological damage? Does that count?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Not for these people

[Wizzle]

"Pschological"? What happened to my spelling?

I can't see the point of torture, you must surely run a high risk of getting answers that the victim thinks you want to hear.

[Gods_Mercenary]

It's mostly about control, you do it to degrade the person until he can no longer psychologically resist. You break his will, and his movement is broken as well.