Foreign Languages

[Hmm]

Quote by: phoenix_fire It's probably not nearly as bad as English. I am just starting Japanese grammar and already I have an appreciation of how overly complicated English grammar is to the non-native speaker.

J'ai plusieurs amis qui habitent à Québec et qui peuvent parler en français et en anglais. Ils me disent que l'anglais est tellement plus facile que le français. Moi, je ne sais pas... peut être ce la dépend.

[fushigi]

Quote by: phoenix_fire Well, I don't know that this would work for Italian. But I've been learning Japanese with a book, a dictionary, and most importantly all the subtitled anime I can watch. Immersion is always best. The more you need to know the language to function (such as to watch something without having to look at subtitles), the better you will learn. Not only that, but it helps a whole lot with pronunciation, inflection, culture and idioms that you just can't get out of a course or book.

Amen to that. Never doubt the power of television to teach you, whether you want it or not.

[iclaudius]

Yeah, they do the same thing here in Poland, though to a much lesser extent. I can speak the language pretty well, although to be honest, I was surprised to find people when I got here.

I thought they'd all moved to the UK... :)

[Nono]

Yeah, 40 thousand in Northern Ireland alone, I've heard.

Quote by: Phoenix Immersion is always best.

Of course. That's how each of us learned our mother tongue.

L'anglais est tellement plus facile que le français.

Sure, learning simple English is pretty easy and one of the things that's made it a successful language worldwide. But I have reason to think that learning to speak English well is probably harder than learning to speak French well.

And of course, there are plenty of people in Quebec who don't have either down pat.:)

[Hmm]

Quote by: Nono Sure, learning simple English is pretty easy and one of the things that's made it a successful language worldwide. But I have reason to think that learning to speak English well is probably harder than learning to speak French well. And of course, there are plenty of people in Quebec who don't have either down pat.:)

Haha... Two true points.

By the way, do you mean that the Quebecois don't speak French well because it is a deviation from "standard" French?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Try growing up with Quebecois-American Grandparents who taught me their french and then going to school and speaking to the parisian french teacher as he scowled at my slang.

[Hmm]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Try growing up with Quebecois-American Grandparents who taught me their french and then going to school and speaking to the parisian french teacher as he scowled at my slang.

Ouch... yeah. Highschool French teachers, who all teach French from Tours, don't particularly like the French-Canadian version.

It's kind of like in France. On television programs, if the people have the slightest accent that is non-France French, they put subtitles on the screen, as if the public couldn't understand them in the first place. It would be like putting subtitles for Americans whenever someone from the UK was speaking.

[iclaudius]

Quote by: Hmm Ouch... yeah. Highschool French teachers, who all teach French from Tours, don't particularly like the French-Canadian version. It's kind of like in France. On television programs, if the people have the slightest accent that is non-France French, they put subtitles on the screen, as if the public couldn't understand them in the first place. It would be like putting subtitles for Americans whenever someone from the UK was speaking.

They actually do that a lot, though, and sometimes it's a good thing. Ever see Sweet 16? You can't understand a damn thing unless you're Scottish.

[ZNFYRH]

I'm classified as an Empathic Linguist, also known as Empathic Accuracy.

If I can see the speaker I can generally get a sense of what they are talking about, moreso if they are having a conversation with another person.

I get to participate in studies, everything from testing for psychic ability down to the more practical ones checking to see if I am able to pick up on more subtle body language or scent cues.

A nice aside to this is that even if I know nothing about a language, I can tell if someone is acting, faking, or lying.

But it's frustrating because I can't read a language, write it, or speak it back. I can only absorb.

It's not documented well, yet, but here is a link to a different way of describing it:
LINGUIST List 11.760: Empathic Accuracy, Types of Stress Assignment

Wiki has a bit about it here:
Sociolinguistics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[gw120]

It would be like putting subtitles for Americans whenever someone from the UK was speaking.

You know they'll do that some times whenever someone from the deep south is talking.

[Hmm]

Quote by: gw120 You know they'll do that some times whenever someone from the deep south is talking.

They will put subtitles on for Americans who are listening to people from the southern US speak, or for the British?

[Gods_Mercenary]

I've seen that for people with a relatively light non-english accent, but never for a native english speaker.

[fushigi]

Some crass American yankees might say there's no need to put subtitles on anything a southerner would say; they never say anything worth listening to anyway.

[G. Adams]

Quote by: gw120 You know they'll do that some times whenever someone from the deep south is talking.

In over 21 years I don't ever remember seeing subtitles for American speakers on UK tv. I've seen it for none-native english speakers, but never for Americans.

In reverse though, I did hear that some Brit shows and films like Taggart and Trainspotting came with subtitles in the US. I don't know what the problem is, Scottish is fairly easy to understand.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Probably a precaution so some old lady isn't like "what, what, I don't know what their saying!" and then calls the company up and wastes time. :)

[fushigi]

Quote by: G. Adams In over 21 years I don't ever remember seeing subtitles for American speakers on UK tv. I've seen it for none-native english speakers, but never for Americans. In reverse though, I did hear that some Brit shows and films like Taggart and Trainspotting came with subtitles in the US. I don't know what the problem is, Scottish is fairly easy to understand.

Face it, American English may not sound as cool, but it's more accurate. Take the letter "r" for example. When it's there, you don't pronounce it. "Court" become "Coat" and "farther," "father," and "fatha" sound exactly the same! (In Cockney, you could even add "fava" to the list.)

And sometimes you add it, for no legitimate reason! It's "Martha," not "Marther"!

Americans aside, think about the poor people from non-native English-speaking countries. My girlfriend's Brazilian, and although she loves Pride & Prejudice, and has watched it at least a dozen times, she still always uses the subtitles.

[Nono]

Quote by: Phoenix Do you mean that the Quebecois don't speak French well because it is a deviation from "standard" French?

Certainly not. Many Québécois speak excellent French, and in their own way too.

What I mean is that Quebec, being only one of 10 Canadian provinces and having an English-speaking minority in its midst (well, in Montreal anyway), inevitably has a lot of people who view themselves as "bilingual". But often they don't have a really solid anchor in either language, and are contaminated both ways.

This isn't peculiar to Quebec, of course. The same applies to the Hispanic community in the US, say. Or to a lot of people I know where I live LOL. That's how new languages evolve after all.

As for the French, they're on pretty thin ice scorning non-standard French, there being quite a few regional dialects in France itself. On a visit to France once, then Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau (now that guy really was bilingual) gave an interview on TV, following which the interviewer congratulated him on speaking "our language" so well. He shot back "It's my language too!"

[Nono]

Quote by: G. Scottish is fairly easy to understand.

You never been to Glasgow?

[Hmm]

Quote by: Nono As for the French, they're on pretty thin ice scorning non-standard French, there being quite a few regional dialects in France itself. On a visit to France once, then Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau (now that guy really was bilingual) gave an interview on TV, following which the interviewer congratulated him on speaking "our language" so well. He shot back "It's my language too!"

The French can be odd sometimes... :eek:

[G. Adams]

Quote by: fushigi Face it, American English may not sound as cool, but it's more accurate. Take the letter "r" for example. When it's there, you don't pronounce it. "Court" become "Coat" and "farther," "father," and "fatha" sound exactly the same! (In Cockney, you could even add "fava" to the list.) And sometimes you add it, for no legitimate reason! It's "Martha," not "Marther"! Americans aside, think about the poor people from non-native English-speaking countries. My girlfriend's Brazilian, and although she loves Pride & Prejudice, and has watched it at least a dozen times, she still always uses the subtitles.

Your working largely from Cockney in those generalisations, and the softer middle class London accent. I prounounce my r's fine, thank you. If accuate pronunciation is what counts, when was the last time you articulated the k in knife? It was vocalised in Chaucers time, but has been dropped over time. We use "an" before history, which should be incorrect, but it is because at the time of formulating a more rigid language it was more common to use the french pronunciation whereby the h wasn't vocalised.

There is a vast range of accents and regional dialects across the UK. There is no such thing as correct English; English is an ever evolving, mongrel language, which is why it is so good. We have no governing body telling us what is officially right or wrong like the French. We do it ourselves.