Is condescention necessary?

[Kamehameha34]

I'm constantly bombarded (and admittedly employ) phrases like "You're still not getting it..", and "Once again, you've missed the point.."


I feel that these are simply admissions that you can't express your argument accurately. It tends to ruin the atmosphere. As soon as someone uses a phrase like that, a similar one will resurface in the posts of each person involved in the debate. It unavoidably snowballs out of control, until both sides are effectively trolling.

So to all who read this, I implore you..

Don' do dat.






Edit: Sorry, had to add an "lol" to the OP when I saw the sites that this thread is advertising.

[Jack]

Let he who is without sin...

We all express our exasperation with those who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge other points of view (not agree with them, just acknowledge their validity) one way or another. I've seen a few of your jibes just as you've encountered some of mine. This is an adult debate forum, but we obviously don't follow strict rules of debate. Occasionally we'll let slip with our exasperation. Suck it up and move along or defend yourself within the rules.
That's my 2¢ anyway.

[Kamehameha34]

I'm constantly bombarded (and admittedly employ) phrases like "You're still not getting it..", and "Once again, you've missed the point.."

Don't see how you missed that. <(Oops :()

It isn't just about "letting slip exasperation". One doesn't have to insult the other's intelligence to vent.

The fact that it is frequent leads to an air of hostility upon entering a debate.

I'm just really annoyed that "How can I hide the insult this time?" has become a frequently practiced tactic.

[bishop]

sometimes i feel that there's more debate amongst certain members over the rules or proper etiquette than there is debate on political/etc. topics.

[Scribbler1]

Don't forget the armchair editors who make half of their posts critiques of other peoples writing quality.

BTW, the letter "I" should be upper case when written alone.

[Fonceai]

I've never encountered "condescention" on this forum.

You need to differentiate between someone telling you you're wrong because they think you're stupid and wrong because you don't understand.

Believe it or not, the first step in refuting someone else's argument is demonstrating that you understand it.

Then repeat it back to them.

Then refute it.

But when you make it appear that you didn't really pay attention to anything and you don't address what people say, and instead introduce more of your own ideas without maintaining the exchange of dialog, then someone pointing out your own failings to you will seem like condescension.

You'll also get better responses if you use Firefox 2 or IE 6 and pay attention to the spell checker. And context. Hard to ignore the fact that you're 14 years old when you write "flower" instead of "flour".

[Kamehameha34]

It's fun watching Fonce try to justify himself

[Fonceai]

And you wonder why you are treated the way you are.

You actually get an honest answer and you act like a spoiled adolescent.

[Jack]

He's trying to make a valid point whether you appreciate it or not. Debate, even disagreement, includes an element of rebuttal. To properly rebut another's point, you first have to understand it, then offer an alternative point. Repetitively stating your own opinion isn't rebuttal.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 It's fun watching Fonce try to justify himself

You just did what you're complaining about right there.

and when people say "You're still not getting it..", and "Once again, you've missed the point.." ~ it's not that they're trying to put you down, it's probably because you just didn't get what they were trying to explain.

For example, I explain something from my point of view, then in that conversation you reply with something that doesn't really relate to what I was explaining, therefore you appear to not understand what was trying to say, and then it has to be explained again until it seems as though you acknowledge what was trying to be said. ~ (Not anything in particular I'm picking at, just making an example)

It's not about an attack on intelligence, it's about making sure the point was made and understood, weither or not you agree with it or not. If it is not made clear right away, then the topic goes off on all kinds of tangents and the debate is lost.

[Athena]

Quote by: bishop sometimes i feel that there's more debate amongst certain members over the rules or proper etiquette than there is debate on political/etc. topics.

Which one of us actually knows the rules for debating or argumentation? I do not. I know those rules exist and I can access them, but using them means real effort. I think if we actually knew the rules and used them, some really amazing things could happen in this group thinking effort in these forums. What we are doing is the real meaning of democracy. We aren't sharing wine and food as the Athenians did, but what we are doing is what lead to some of the best thinking in history.

On the other hand we are like a primary group, and this is more about meeting social needs than actually developing ideas. That is, this is more friendship based decussion, where we share opinions and feelings, not actual facts discussed by using rules of logic. It has been very civil compared to when I took a leave from the forums, and I am very pleased by that. :)

:confused: I don't know if we really want to kick this up a notch and post the rules for real debate, so we can learn them together. That may be too formal for what has been an informal gathering of minds. However, such formality would erradicate the personal attacks and could be a good discipline for us all to practice. It would greatly improve our thinking skills and self discipline, but also wouldn't be so friendly.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Fonceai And you wonder why you are treated the way you are. You actually get an honest answer and you act like a spoiled adolescent.

"Ok, I'm sorry for calling you condescending."

Is that really the response you expect when you post such hypocritical garbage?




And Prax, that isn't the situation in most cases. In most cases, people simply say that their opponent "doesn't get it", and re-troll their views. If someone could explain how I don't understand, I'd concede the point. If they continue to point out things that I've already accounted for and refuted, they are being condescending, and frankly, bullish.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Athena Which one of us actually knows the rules for debating or argumentation? I do not. I know those rules exist and I can access them, but using them means real effort. I think if we actually knew the rules and used them, some really amazing things could happen in this group thinking effort in these forums. What we are doing is the real meaning of democracy. We aren't sharing wine and food as the Athenians did, but what we are doing is what lead to some of the best thinking in history.

Very much agreed. Argument would be much more entertaining if I didn't have to continuously point out fallacious thinking.

:confused: I don't know if we really want to kick this up a notch and post the rules for real debate, so we can learn them together. That may be too formal for what has been an informal gathering of minds. However, such formality would erradicate the personal attacks and could be a good discipline for us all to practice. It would greatly improve our thinking skills and self discipline, but also wouldn't be so friendly.

I don't disagree that this forum largely constitutes informal debate, nor do I object to that fact. I just think that, on a debate forum, people should practice formal logic, which means they will have to exclude the complete list of fallacies as a means to prove their point.

[Praxius]

I don't think you'd get the same impact of each person's opinions that way either.

I mean.... where's the fun in "Input understood..... reply active now.... transmission sent...... crush kill destroy?"

[Praxius]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 I don't disagree that this forum largely constitutes informal debate, nor do I object to that fact. I just think that, on a debate forum, people should practice formal logic, which means they will have to exclude the complete list of fallacies as a means to prove their point.

Ah, but nobody has all the answers, and sometimes one has to fill in the gaps with their own logical assembly of available information supplied.

Without speculation you can't get very far ahead. It helps to think outside of the box at times, when things inside the box just don't add up.

And to your reply above, granted, it does happen from time to time in that situation, and I agree in that sense..... I just didn't understand what you were trying to get at in the 1st post......

.... See.... I didn't get it, lol.

[Athena]

Quote by: Praxius You just did what you're complaining about right there. and when people say "You're still not getting it..", and "Once again, you've missed the point.." ~ it's not that they're trying to put you down, it's probably because you just didn't get what they were trying to explain. For example, I explain something from my point of view, then in that conversation you reply with something that doesn't really relate to what I was explaining, therefore you appear to not understand what was trying to say, and then it has to be explained again until it seems as though you acknowledge what was trying to be said. ~ (Not anything in particular I'm picking at, just making an example) It's not about an attack on intelligence, it's about making sure the point was made and understood, weither or not you agree with it or not. If it is not made clear right away, then the topic goes off on all kinds of tangents and the debate is lost.

I very much agree with the point made here. We need a better understanding of ourselves and what a point of view is. Some people have their limited experience of life confused with having a much bigger view of reality. Sometimes, it is different cultural experiences that are causing the disagreement or inability to grasp the concepts someone else is explaning. We are not working with a knowledge of complex concepts requiring knowledge of several simple conplex. In general or expectations of human thinking is excessive considering the actual limits to our thinking.

We can go a long ways in over coming our thinking limits, but first we must recognise them. This is so much easier to do now that I am old. I am old and obviously short of perfection. There is a time in life, when we have deal with the reality that we are not exactly as the immortal gods.:)

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Praxius Ah, but nobody has all the answers, and sometimes one has to fill in the gaps with their own logical assembly of available information supplied.

Actually, Wikipedia has a complete list of fallacies, to the best of my knowledge.

Without speculation you can't get very far ahead. It helps to think outside of the box at times, when things inside the box just don't add up.

I believe a lack of speculation of deities is what triggered atheism, which was very much outside the box in the time of its conception.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Kame Is that really the response you expect when you post such hypocritical garbage?

"hypocritical garbage", eh?

You just don't get it... complaining about being condescending to you and then doing the exact same thing...

Quote by: Kame If someone could explain how I don't understand, I'd concede the point.

People are trying to tell you how you don't understand, and are then careful to correct you.

But you don't concede.

Then people treat you like a stupid teenager.

See how that works?

Quote by: Athena Which one of us actually knows the rules for debating or argumentation? I do not. I know those rules exist and I can access them, but using them means real effort. I think if we actually knew the rules and used them, some really amazing things could happen in this group thinking effort in these forums.

I know them, but they rely on active moderation, which can't happen here.

Trust me, I've already asked.

Quote by: Kame I believe a lack of speculation of deities is what triggered atheism, which was very much outside the box in the time of its conception.

Derailing your own thread?

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Fonceai "hypocritical garbage", eh? You just don't get it... complaining about being condescending to you and then doing the exact same thing...

Ok, how do you respond to me subtely calling you condescending?

You call me a spoiled adolescent.

Maybe you don't know what you're attempting to prove?

People are trying to tell you how you don't understand, and are then careful to correct you. But you don't concede. Then people treat you like a stupid teenager. See how that works?

Right, I don't concede, I disprove. My age has nothing to do with it.

Derailing your own thread?

Tangents are the bane of Fonceai.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Kame Right, I don't concede, I disprove. My age has nothing to do with it.

I could easily say that Isherwood or Patrick Henry or Osborn or Autolykos is acting like a spoiled teenager. It's in the attitude.

Also, you said it right there in your quote.

Someone identifies that you misunderstood and tries to correct you, and you immediately set out to disprove them.

Swallow your pride and shut up long enough to think about what they are trying to tell you.

You are one of the few people on here who is deserving of insult and rudeness, and I'm sure the only thing holding some people back is that they don't want to get an infraction.

Now... you could try to understand what I'm telling you and realize your behavior might be earning you disrespect and alter your conduct... or you could just disagree by default.

Even in this very thread, where you say that you will concede if corrected, you are failing to do so.