Is condescention necessary?

[shawmutt]

M: (Knock)
A: Come in.
M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I told you once.
M: No you haven't.
A: Yes I have.
M: When?
A: Just now.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't
A: I did!
M: You didn't!
A: I'm telling you I did!
M: You did not!!
A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour?
M: Oh, just the five minutes.
A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did.
M: You most certainly did not.
A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you.
M: No you did not.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: No you didn't.
A: Yes I did.
M: You didn't.
A: Did.
M: Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A: Yes it is.
M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A: No it isn't.
M: It is!
A: It is not.
M: Look, you just contradicted me.
A: I did not.
M: Oh you did!!
A: No, no, no.
M: You did just then.
A: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!
A: No it isn't.
M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn't.
M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!

A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't.
M: It is.
A: Not at all.
M: Now look.
A: (Rings bell) Good Morning.
M: What?
A: That's it. Good morning.
M: I was just getting interested.
A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
M: That was never five minutes!
A: I'm afraid it was.
M: It wasn't.
Pause
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue anymore.
M: What?!
A: If you want me to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes.
M: Yes, but that was never five minutes, just now. Oh come on!
A: (Hums)
M: Look, this is ridiculous.
A: I'm sorry, but I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid!
M: Oh, all right.
(pays money)
A: Thank you.
short pause
M: Well?
A: Well what?
M: That wasn't really five minutes, just now.
A: I told you, I'm not allowed to argue unless you've paid.
M: I just paid!
A: No you didn't.
M: I DID!
A: No you didn't.
M: Look, I don't want to argue about that.
A: Well, you didn't pay.
M: Aha. If I didn't pay, why are you arguing? I Got you!
A: No you haven't.
M: Yes I have. If you're arguing, I must have paid.
A: Not necessarily. I could be arguing in my spare time.
M: Oh I've had enough of this.
A: No you haven't.
M: Oh Shut up.

sorry, couldn't resist

[Osborn F Enready]

There is such a thing as "fight fire with fire" when all other methods fail.

Some people debate from a power perspective, and don't acknowledge that until their logic is exposed for its flaws. Sometimes that requires condescension, or at least, a poke of "another view" to jostle introspection.

Logical extrapolation is a beautiful thing, especially when reducing to the lowest common denominator.

[ZNFYRH]

But isn't condescension against the rules on Volconvo?

[Osborn F Enready]

It depends on the intent, from what I have gathered, as well as the means.

If your saying something in a sharp manner, it can be conducive to debate sometimes, while at other times, the motive for inciting a flame war is obvious.

Many people here don't debate formally, so there is a lot of infractions by debate rules, formal ones anyway.

I think the forum rules are pretty lenient, with exception to direct insults and profanity, viewed in context. I think the mods do a great job of trying to keep the debate flowing, while trying to avoid flame-wars and still allow a good measure of free-speech.

This is the loosest, most sensibly moderated forum of this type on the net in my opinion, but that is why I am here a lot to, so I am biased a bit in that regard.

[ZNFYRH]

I see. I guess I'll just try to avoid it completely in my posts.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Praxius I think he was just saying that you contradict yourself at times. Pot and Kettle so to speak.

Any "contradiction" others have seen in me can be easily related to a misunderstanding on their part.

[Clarence]

I'm not listening!

[Praxius]

On their part? Oh of course..... how could I be so foolish to think you can't make mistakes either. *smacks head*

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: brien I am sooooooooooo guilty of this. I have to restrain myself so many times. I get exasperated thinking how the English language has been dumbed down so school children 's feelings won't be hurt when they are corrected with regard to spelling, grammar and usage. I am not as bad as I used to be, but I do judge a poster by their grammar usage and spelling. GUILTY

I know what you mean. I tend to get that way myself at times (BTW, my criticism of the case of the *I* was just kidding around). I try, although not always succeed, to use correct spelling and such because I feel that's all we really have to get our points across. No inflection, body language or even a smile (not a "smiley", as I hate those things) is available to help with clarity.

But I also know I screw up as well as the next guy so I keep it low key whenever possible.

Edit to add: I do give points for foreigners whose native tongue is not English and to teens who are just learning how to express themselves.

You need to be flexible, especially with those whose native tongue isn't English. I'm not as forgiving with teens, who IMO are just as smart as most adults in some ways.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Praxius On their part? Oh of course..... how could I be so foolish to think you can't make mistakes either. *smacks head*

I'm not ambivalent about anything, at this point, and I know my position on any given subject better than you do.

[pubmanager]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 I'm not ambivalent about anything, at this point, and I know my position on any given subject better than you do.

Would "get over yourself" be condescending?

Just checking

[Jack]

I know my position on any given subject better than you do.

Very good. Your attitude is maturing. Now you should be able to understand what some of us were saying in another thread when you were trying to tell us you knew our position on the god concept better than we did ourselves.

[Epistemologist]

Condescendence isn't necessary, but it's almost inevitable since we often get out of control. Condensation, on the other hand, is necessary.

[StrongHeartsWin]

You mean like a tendency to always resorting to "It`s all subjective" and reductionist arguments ad nausium?

Quote by: Kamehameha34 Was that necessary? Did you need to dig up a completely unrelated topic to rail on my intelligence?

I haven`t said anything negative about your intelligence. Like others here, I spoke on your style.

The topic is part of what you made it out to be in the OP -- about "you still not getting it, once again you are missing the point," and "ruining the atmosphere."

What I have seen, is your reductionist arguments and constant fall-back net "it`s all subjective," which has even been pointed out by someone else stating that you like to say that word a lot. It`s an immature debate defense -- a kind of last defense tactic because you are bankrupt, or you just can`t express any other ideas of counter-argument "accurately," again like you refer to in the OP.

If you are too sensitive to take criticism on yourself, when you admittedly created a thread that admits you are being taken issue with and focused on quite a lot for your style, then you shouldn`t have created the thread.

So, yes, my post to you here was necessary, and your response to others who have taken you up on your offer to discuss the points you brought up shows the seriousness in which you intended to handle feedback.

[Epistemologist]

Quote by: StrongHeartsWin What I have seen, is your reductionist arguments and constant fall-back net "it`s all subjective," which has even been pointed out by someone else stating that you like to say that word a lot. It`s an immature debate defense -- a kind of last defense tactic because you are bankrupt, or you just can`t express any other ideas of counter-argument "accurately," again like you refer to in the OP.

Come now, perhaps for more peaceful discussions just consider the statements as they may actually fit the discussion, and don't necessarily consider who's saying them. Hey, he might say the same thing over and over again, but that doesn't mean he's wrong.

It's these preconceptions that we have about users that catalyze our condescending and hostile attitudes while also influencing us to blindly accept friends' points.

[Boetie]

Is the word "Bullshit" condenscending?

After all an Ivy League philosopher, Princeton's Harry G. Frankfurt thought the word was worthy of serious philispophical inquiry.

Frankfurt was asked by Daily Show's Stewart whether our culture occasionally cleans house by "truth-telling," or whether "it just keeps piling," Frankfurt responded, "I think it just keeps piling."

[Kamehameha34]

SHW, I'm not going to debate you on this. The fact that your points fall into subjectivity doesn't make my calling them subjective a "fallback". You have nothing but miscellaneous, and unrelated political speculation when you argue against meat eating.

This isn't a forum to criticize me. It's a thread to denounce condescension. You fail to be on topic, and you're using it as an outlet for baseless personal attacks.

Is the word "Bullshit" condenscending?

No, I was merely describing his style.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 You fail to be on topic, and you're using it as an outlet for baseless personal attacks.

I have not said anything about your person in regards to being good, bad, immature, etc.... I have tied in the topic of the OP with your style -- which you seem to rail about because you are, by your own admission, getting bombarded with ..."still not getting it," and "...missed the point." If I say something clearly derogatory about you, other than that relating to debate style, then please report me.

If my points made have been so far off topic from the OP, then I don`t mind a moderator pointing it out to me. As of yet, in this thread regarding my previous posts which you are upset about, they have not been done so.

Perhaps you may want to be more careful in thread/op creations if you can`t handle the feedback which comes with them -- which I have already pointed out to you.

[Matt W]

*shrugs* 'Specially in Misc. Who cares if a thread goes wildly off-topic?

[Jack]

It's a thread to denounce condescension

I don't denounce it. It's a perfectly acceptable means of communicating an attitude. Comments may be condescending, acerbic, snide, rhetorical, ironic, all of which convey the context that the comment should be considered within.