Is condescention necessary?

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai I've never encountered "condescention" on this forum. You need to differentiate between someone telling you you're wrong because they think you're stupid and wrong because you don't understand. Believe it or not, the first step in refuting someone else's argument is demonstrating that you understand it. Then repeat it back to them. Then refute it. But when you make it appear that you didn't really pay attention to anything and you don't address what people say, and instead introduce more of your own ideas without maintaining the exchange of dialog, then someone pointing out your own failings to you will seem like condescension. You'll also get better responses if you use Firefox 2 or IE 6 and pay attention to the spell checker. And context. Hard to ignore the fact that you're 14 years old when you write "flower" instead of "flour".

Excellent point that we should paraphrase what another said, and then state a disgreement. It is possible our own understanding of what was said was in error. The process gives the first person, the opportunity to restate the misunderstood statement. This process is repeated until all feel satisfied with the idea that there is shared understanding of what is being said.

[Kamehameha34]

When you "correct" me, you are explaining how I'm wrong, yet when I correct you, the action somehow transforms into an act of immaturity that is liable for insults?

Oops, I went and corrected you again :eek:

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Athena Excellent point that we should paraphrase what another said, and then state a disgreement. It is possible our own understanding of what was said was in error. The process gives the first person, the opportunity to restate the misunderstood statement. This process is repeated until all feel satisfied with the idea that there is shared understanding of what is being said.

It's called Reflective Listening.

You use it to show that you repeat back what you heard in order to show that you were listening and also be corrected in case you misunderstood.

A disagreement that is resolved through use of Reflective Listening is surprisingly short and almost disappointing when you realize how minor the issue really was.

The principle can still work online as well.

If you want to try it in a Special Debate, Athena, just for fun with no malice intended, I'll participate so you can get a feel for it.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai And you wonder why you are treated the way you are. You actually get an honest answer and you act like a spoiled adolescent.

If an adolescent is posting, we might assume the adolescent (or old fart, or person from another culture) has not yet understood a concept we are presenting, and respond like an adult guided by principle, instead of attacking and giving the other person credit for our unprincipled and undisciplined behavior.

We are respectful people, when that is what we choose to be, and our behavior depends on how we decide to behave, not on another.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Kame When you "correct" me, you are explaining how I'm wrong, yet when I correct you, the action somehow transforms into an act of immaturity that is liable for insults?

Yes.

You asked why people are treating you like a stupid kid.

I'm telling you why.

Then you disagree.

Why are you disagreeing with someone who is answering a question you asked?

Do you realize that that in itself is... well... stupid?

I'm answering your question.

And as I wrote, you choose to get pissy and whine and complain and do everything except realize that you have an opportunity to correct yourself.

If I were to make a thread titled, "Why do people think I'm an asshole?" and the text of my opening post expressed that I was upset, I would take to heart the answers I received and consider changing my behavior if I didn't like being regarded as an asshole.

But instead, you are arguing with someone who has no reason to answer you, who could easily ridicule you, and might actually think you're capable of learning something here.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Athena and respond like an adult guided by principle, instead of attacking and giving the other person credit for our unprincipled and undisciplined behavior. We are respectful people, when that is what we choose to be, and our behavior depends on how we decide to behave, not on another.

I give someone one strike, that's it.

Besides, the comment was in regards to the behavior, not the person. I'm careful how I make those kinds of statements.

As I wrote above, this is his request for input. If he can't handle it, that's his problem, not mine.

[Kamehameha34]

Find me one question mark in the OP. I proposed a question in the title, and I answered it in the OP. It's a writing style (apparently confusing, to some).


You use this thread to tangentially apply how you think you are empirically infallible, and that I am somehow mistaken for disagreeing with you.

[Athena]

Quote by: Fonceai It's called Reflective Listening. You use it to show that you repeat back what you heard in order to show that you were listening and also be corrected in case you misunderstood. A disagreement that is resolved through use of Reflective Listening is surprisingly short and almost disappointing when you realize how minor the issue really was. The principle can still work online as well. If you want to try it in a Special Debate, Athena, just for fun with no malice intended, I'll participate so you can get a feel for it.

I would gladly engage in disciplined debate with the intent of improving my own ability to do so. Right now I have to fulfill some responsibilities. As soon as I can, I will return. Please, PM me about the thread and where to find it. OR how about requesting a place for "formual debates", so there is agreement that entering these debates is an agreement to follow rules? OR perhaps form a private group for formal debates, so those involved understand the intent is learn the rules and use them, not to beat someone up and WIN.

[Praxius]

Kame, I will admit, for your age, I do commend you for your ability to express your opinion and stand by it with confidence. You're entering forums of mass debate and doing so at your age will help you understand things that I at your age didn't have the luxury of doing, as you can with the internet these days.

Those who take advantage of the vast collective of the internet will advance quite fast, beyond those who just isolate themselves in their own country's given information. Instead of gathering a national intelligence, you have the ability of accessing international intelligence.

However, one minor fault I see in your posts and opinions, is that you're more apt to argue your point and force other's to think it is correct without regard. You seem to hold to your own book of things that you deem to be correct and fact, and for others, if they don't relate to your side of the perspective, you seem to tend to generalize them in a particular category and bombard them with continual arguments to prove your point as being rule.

In simpler terms, you seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing, and to me, it appears as though your confidence in your intelligence at your age, tends to make you appear a little "Over the Top" on some things..... which is almost always guaranteed to bring you debate back at you in an equal amount of flack, which will fuel the argument on and on and on..... weither anybody is right or wrong.

Now I could be completely wrong, but that's how it seems to come off to me as.

Mind you, I will admit this trait I have notice is greatly improving the more I see you on here, and everybody hit's this road when coming into a global forum. I myself, when I started in forums when I was 17, I had a lot of straightening out to do with myself.

I tended to get into some interesting debates where I would just keep it going and going, picking one mistake out of a comment and going with it, until the next. I tended to end up appearing a tad cocky at times, and full of it.

Not to sound like an old geezer, but you kinda remind me when I was your age. Mind you I was hard core into Star Trek TNG at your age and I held to logic like a friggin book.

I learned to tone it down a bit, so less flack came my way and my point was adapted a bit easier to other's with different opinions, without coming off trying to sound like I knew everything.... hell I probably still sound like I do..... but not as bad as I once was.

I'm just giving you some constructive criticism to help you kinda adapt your posting to give you less damage control to deal with and save your fingers from extra typing.

I also think this might have something to do with your above complaint about people in arguments. You have a bit of a hand in what is coming at you.

You could be completely right, or completely wrong, but with a graceful touch with your posts, you'll notice it's easier to get your point across without having to go into loops of discussion on the same things.

Sometimes a tap is better then a shove.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Praxius Kame, I will admit, for your age, I do commend you for your ability to express your opinion and stand by it with confidence. You're entering forums of mass debate and doing so at your age will help you understand things that I at your age didn't have the luxury of doing, as you can with the internet these days. Those who take advantage of the vast collective of the internet will advance quite fast, beyond those who just isolate themselves in their own country's given information. Instead of gathering a national intelligence, you have the ability of accessing international intelligence. However, one minor fault I see in your posts and opinions, is that you're more apt to argue your point and force other's to think it is correct without regard. You seem to hold to your own book of things that you deem to be correct and fact, and for others, if they don't relate to your side of the perspective, you seem to tend to generalize them in a particular category and bombard them with continual arguments to prove your point as being rule. In simpler terms, you seem to like to argue for the sake of arguing, and to me, it appears as though your confidence in your intelligence at your age, tends to make you appear a little "Over the Top" on some things..... which is almost always guaranteed to bring you debate back at you in an equal amount of flack, which will fuel the argument on and on and on..... weither anybody is right or wrong. Now I could be completely wrong, but that's how it seems to come off to me as. Mind you, I will admit this trait I have notice is greatly improving the more I see you on here, and everybody hit's this road when coming into a global forum. I myself, when I started in forums when I was 17, I had a lot of straightening out to do with myself. I tended to get into some interesting debates where I would just keep it going and going, picking one mistake out of a comment and going with it, until the next. I tended to end up appearing a tad cocky at times, and full of it. Not to sound like an old geezer, but you kinda remind me when I was your age. Mind you I was hard core into Star Trek TNG at your age and I held to logic like a friggin book. I learned to tone it down a bit, so less flack came my way and my point was adapted a bit easier to other's with different opinions, without coming off trying to sound like I knew everything.... hell I probably still sound like I do..... but not as bad as I once was. I'm just giving you some constructive criticism to help you kinda adapt your posting to give you less damage control to deal with and save your fingers from extra typing. I also think this might have something to do with your above complaint about people in arguments. You have a bit of a hand in what is coming at you. You could be completely right, or completely wrong, but with a graceful touch with your posts, you'll notice it's easier to get your point across without having to go into loops of discussion on the same things. Sometimes a tap is better then a shove.

While I agree that I am a bit zealous, I certainly don't view this as a forum to persuade others. I see it as a forum to work on my arguments, and better understand my own positions.

Heck, I was an atheist when I first came here. The requirement of backing up my views was well expressed in my first month here, so I now realize that I'm an agnostic. I think that if people didn't take argument personally, it could be completely unfriendly without issue.

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Athena I would gladly engage in disciplined debate with the intent of improving my own ability to do so. Right now I have to fulfill some responsibilities. As soon as I can, I will return. Please, PM me about the thread and where to find it. OR how about requesting a place for "formual debates", so there is agreement that entering these debates is an agreement to follow rules? OR perhaps form a private group for formal debates, so those involved understand the intent is learn the rules and use them, not to beat someone up and WIN.

The problem is that the rules have to be agreed upon first.

When you have the time, PM me and we'll come to an agreement on rules, the decide a topic, and we can post the rules in a new thread along with the topic, all of which we've both agreed on.

Quote by: Kame I see it as a forum to work on my arguments, and better understand my own positions.

Then when someone points out a problem with your argument, even when they tell you they understand what you're trying to say, you really need to listen.

And I would seriously suggest that until you're more familiar with putting your thoughts into words, you avoid relying on arguments that use your own personal definitions of concepts.

It never works when you state your definition and someone refutes it with a link to a dictionary.

[Kamehameha34]

It never works when you state your definition and someone refutes it with a link to a dictionary.

Glad to see you've come around.

Then when someone points out a problem with your argument, even when they tell you they understand what you're trying to say, you really need to listen.

Until I point out a demonstrable flaw in their "correction" :)

[Fonceai]

Quote by: Kame Glad to see you've come around.

I was talking about you and how you post every thread in which you participate.

Quote by: Kame Until I point out a demonstrable flaw in their "correction"

You think their correction is flawed because you don't understand.

What the hell are you doing posting so much, anyway? Shouldn't you be in school?

Either you aren't paying attention in class, which means you're not learning, which is why you don't understand topics and people correcting you.

Or you aren't in school, which means you're not learning, which again is why you don't understand topics and people correcting you.

If you try to point out flaws in what people say to correct you, you aren't going to learn anything. You won't improve your arguments. You'll continue being pompous, provoking us to belittle you... which means we will get the warnings and you won't... which is sad.

The annoying fly in the ointment gets less attention than the person who tries to swat it... how sad.

[Kamehameha34]

Quote by: Fonceai I was talking about you and how you post every thread in which you participate.

Oh, then sad to see you haven't :(

And I'm officially done with this tug of war. You can call my corrections what you want. I'll be here when you provide some backing to your position.

[StrongHeartsWin]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 I feel that these are simply admissions that you can't express your argument accurately. It tends to ruin the atmosphere.

You mean like a tendency to always resorting to "It`s all subjective" and reductionist arguments ad nausium?

lol.

[Kamehameha34]

Was that necessary? Did you need to dig up a completely unrelated topic to rail on my intelligence?

Your argument against eating meat has failed. Don't resort to the appeal to ridicule fallacy because you can't back it up.

[Praxius]

I think he was just saying that you contradict yourself at times.

Pot and Kettle so to speak.

[Clarence]

pot and kettle, for sure.

[brien]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Don't forget the armchair editors who make half of their posts critiques of other peoples writing quality. BTW, the letter "I" should be upper case when written alone.

I am sooooooooooo guilty of this. I have to restrain myself so many times. I get exasperated thinking how the English language has been dumbed down so school children 's feelings won't be hurt when they are corrected with regard to spelling, grammar and usage. I am not as bad as I used to be, but I do judge a poster by their grammar usage and spelling. GUILTY

Edit to add: I do give points for foreigners whose native tongue is not English and to teens who are just learning how to express themselves.

[ZNFYRH]

I would hope that if my posting style annoys someone they just tell me how it bugs them and suggest how to make it easier to read. And they should do it in a private message. Publicly ridiculing someone over something they really might not be aware of seems rude.