800,000 Privileged Youths Enlist To Fight In Iraq

[RickSp]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Tillman chose to go to war, he was killed, as he knew he very well might. He made that choice and I doubt he would regret it.

What are your sources? The TiIllman family said that Pat actively opposed the Iraq war and he would have hated being used as a poster boy for Bush's wars.

Pat Tillman, Our Hero

The very private Tillmans have revealed a picture of Pat profoundly at odds with the GI Joe image created by Pentagon spinmeisters and their media stenographers. As the Chronicle put it, family and friends are now unveiling "a side of Pat Tillman not widely known--a fiercely independent thinker who enlisted, fought and died in service to his country yet was critical of President Bush and opposed the war in Iraq, where he served a tour of duty. He was an avid reader whose interests ranged from history books...to works of leftist Noam Chomsky, a favorite author." Tillman had very unembedded feelings about the Iraq War. His close friend Army Spec. Russell Baer remembered, "I can see it like a movie screen. We were outside of [an Iraqi city] watching as bombs were dropping on the town.... We were talking. And Pat said, 'You know, this war is so f***ing illegal.' And we all said, 'Yeah.' That's who he was. He totally was against Bush." With these revelations, Pat Tillman the PR icon joins WMD and Al Qaeda connections on the heap of lies used to sell the Iraq War.

[Gods_Mercenary]

He chose to join the army, He knew that being in a deadly situation was part of the job. I have no doubt that he would hate being a poster boy.

[PatrickHenry]

Tillman was a fool who gave up a multimillion dollar contract doing something useful, playing NFL ball. And instead he bought the propaganda that the US needed to assault and occupy other nations. That is now, and has been throughout my lifetime, the mission to which the US military has been put. Not defense of freedom, not assuring the sefety of US citizens in a dangerous world. No, the US military is a fool's errand.

My opinion of Tillman: a patriotic fool. A loser in the game of life, because he was unable to see through the total fraud which is US foreign policy, backed up with hired guns. Do I respect him? Yes, because of his obvious earnestness and willingness to sacrifice a lucrative career for what he believed was a worthy mission. But in the end, he is dead, killed by his brothers in arms, and he could have had a long life with the potential of spending all that money in ways that would actually help people.

I repeat, to join the US military is a very BAD MOVE for anyone. At the least, you may be ordered to kill others who have done you no harm. You may be killed in the service of an empire when you are told you are serving a republic. Worst of all, your mind may be twisted into a sickening mold of supporting the oppressor.

But wait! Doesn't the US have the right to defend itself? Of course it does, like any other nation, indeed like any natural person...When was the last time the US fought a defensive war?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Maybe WW2? if that doesn't count, then the civil war, although whether that was defensive is again your point of view. Although I'm still flabbergasted at why you call the U.S. an Empire, what does it rule?

[Jack]

Although I'm still flabbergasted at why you call the U.S. an Empire, what does it rule?

Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Philippines all became American protectorates. Isn't that what an empire does?

[Gods_Mercenary]

Hah, O,K., maybe the smallest Empire ever, but PH seems to be implying a large and supremely powerful sort of thing. And if you use that than France is still an Empire.

[RickSp]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Hah, O,K., maybe the smallest Empire ever, but PH seems to be implying a large and supremely powerful sort of thing. And if you use that than France is still an Empire.

The smallest empire ever? I don't think so.

- There are 156 countries with US troops stationed
- 63 Countries with US bases
- 13 new bases in 7 countries since 2001
- the US spends more on its miltiary than all other countries spend on defense combined.

US Military Troops and Bases Around the World

[Praxius]

Quote by: brien I take you at your word this is your "opinion" and it speaks for itself. You further explained it and that post also speaks for itself. You think your opinion is smart and that if someone else thinks the opposite opinion, they must be dumb, in your view. You can spin it anyway you wish, but your idea(opinion) is clear to me.

Ok, then you semi understood.... Joining the military is not stupid.... joining the military for this war in Iraq is stupid..... my opinion....

It's a stupid decision, but that doesn't mean the person is stupid. Everybody makes stupid decisions.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary Hah, O,K., maybe the smallest Empire ever, but PH seems to be implying a large and supremely powerful sort of thing. And if you use that than France is still an Empire.

I wish you would read Chalmers Johnson, The Sorrows of Empire.

Chalmers Johnson, author of Sorrow of Empire

A former supporter of the Cold War, Professor Johnson makes a cogent case, but maybe you don't read books...

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: RickSp The smallest empire ever? I don't think so. - There are 156 countries with US troops stationed - 63 Countries with US bases - 13 new bases in 7 countries since 2001 - the US spends more on its miltiary than all other countries spend on defense combined. US Military Troops and Bases Around the World

Do we use the troops to threaten and cajole the governments of the respective governments? Are they all puppet governments? a real empire would have no qualms about invading any country, not just weak pariahs. Many Governments do tend to simply follow our lead, but that's normally just smart (or stupid) politics.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I wish you would read Chalmers Johnson, The Sorrows of Empire. Chalmers Johnson, author of Sorrow of Empire A former supporter of the Cold War, Professor Johnson makes a cogent case, but maybe you don't read books...

The site states that america has imperial ambitions, very different from actually having an empire, considering every government would like to rule an empire.

[brien]

It's a stupid decision, but that doesn't mean the person is stupid. Everybody makes stupid decisions

I just can't understand why you can't see that for some people this isn't a stupid decision. Because you say it is, doesn't make it so for them. They can respect your decision(s) and opinions, so why can't you respect the decisions of others as not being stupid because they are different from your own?

If someone wants to join the service to fight in Iraq, it can be an informed decision based upon facts the enlisted person is comfortable with in their life. What you may regard as stupid for you, is not necessarily stupid for another, and to say so is perhaps intolerant on your part.

[Praxius]

Quote by: brien I just can't understand why you can't see that for some people this isn't a stupid decision. Because you say it is, doesn't make it so for them. They can respect your decision(s) and opinions, so why can't you respect the decisions of others as not being stupid because they are different from your own? If someone wants to join the service to fight in Iraq, it can be an informed decision based upon facts the enlisted person is comfortable with in their life. What you may regard as stupid for you, is not necessarily stupid for another, and to say so is perhaps intolerant on your part.

Fair enough.... I was speaking generally. There are always exceptions to every rule, and my opinion isn't law. Tongue-in-cheek so to speak.

Since this news article isn't serious, I wasn't trying to make a serious statement.

[brien]

Fair enough.... I was speaking generally. There are always exceptions to every rule, and my opinion isn't law. Tongue-in-cheek so to speak

.

Refreshing. I think we may have an understanding here.

[Praxius]

lol... I've got no problem admitting I am wrong at times, and when I am misunderstood.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The site states that america has imperial ambitions, very different from actually having an empire, considering every government would like to rule an empire.

We attack sovereign countries all the time.
If I have free access to your house, I could just come and go as I pleased. Raid your refrigerator, shoot your kids, sleep, shower and get drunk in your house...are you sovereign or me and my armed commrades?
If it were happening to you....you would damn sure know it. But it happens far away....
Just 2 days ago US Troops engaged combat with "al Qaida" in the Philippines (source). Should we allow foreign troops to launch anti terror assaults on our land? No. They would have to start at the WH, and that may be misinterpretted as terror, rather than anti-terror.
They would have to issue a memo first

Do we tolerate assaults? Then why should we expect less of our neighbors? I really suspect its a racism/genocide issue.
In fact, when Saudi Arabia attacked us on 911 (if you believe the FBI), that gave us the right to attack anyone in the world (?).
Because Dick Vader et al says borders cant stop us ...that makes it our foreign policy?

Back on topic of this thread,
The ONLY reason Charlie Rangel submitted the Bill to reinstate the Draft, was because currently our system is not a volunteer Army. We send our poor to die for the profit of the rich. They are sent to a "Roach Motel" where they cannot just serve their tour of duty. The backdoor draft makes sure they are completely used up or dead before they can leave. Its class warfare.
I am STRONGLY opposed to the draft....
I am STRONGLY opposed to war....
Barbara Boxer was right about how neither herself nor Condolizzard had any skin in the game. Maybe the war would end tomorrow... if the cretins were sending their own to die; rather than those who were just trying to escape the ghetto or for whatever economic reasons.

From Guns N' Roses Civil War:

I don't need your civil war It feeds the rich while it buries the poor You're power hungry, sellin' soldiers In a human grocery store

[Gods_Mercenary]

We don't attack anyone too strong,though. hell, we've bitten off more than we can chew in Iraq, never mind the countries we really want to invade. That doesn't sound like an Empire to me, an empire enters and then overwhelms, not enters and is overwhelmed.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: The Architect Well...now I look like a fool. The article looked convincing.

Don't worry about it. The Onion is VERY good at this.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Tillman was a fool who gave up a multimillion dollar contract doing something useful, playing NFL ball. And instead he bought the propaganda that the US needed to assault and occupy other nations.

Some people believe, as they did without question in past generations, that the President acts in our interests. You can't fault the guy for being idealistic
Dupe? Probably. Fool? I don't think so.

And just what is so useful about NFL Football?

I repeat, to join the US military is a very BAD MOVE for anyone. At the least, you may be ordered to kill others who have done you no harm. You may be killed in the service of an empire when you are told you are serving a republic.

Killing others who have done you no harm is what armies do, in the sense that the opposing army is just as much a pawn as your own.

Worst of all, your mind may be twisted into a sickening mold of supporting the oppressor.

I think they are a small minority of the military. I happen to know a LOT of Vietnam vets who are nothing like that. I can only assume the people I know are representative of the majority and I'm betting you could say the same for Gulf War vets (I know 2) who only want to live their lives and forget what they went through.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Scribbler1 And just what is so useful about NFL Football?

Heh. Good point. But I would say it's more useful than being a hired gun for Uncle Sam in a foreign occupation. Pro sports provide entertainment, provide employment, generate profits, aren't inherently morally wrong. Marginally useful.

Quote by: Scribbler1 Killing others who have done you no harm is what armies do, in the sense that the opposing army is just as much a pawn as your own. I think they are a small minority of the military. I happen to know a LOT of Vietnam vets who are nothing like that. I can only assume the people I know are representative of the majority and I'm betting you could say the same for Gulf War vets (I know 2) who only want to live their lives and forget what they went through.

As an internet forum junkie, I can say that there are a LOT of twisted military and ex-military supporters of Uncle Sam's tyranny. Purely my experience on this and other forums. Not supported by unbiased statistical studies.

This doesn't mean that the military experience always results in such a view. There are those vets who react oppositely and end up being opponents of a militaristic foreign policy. That is indeed a hopeful sign. :eek: