Praxius and Captain Chaos, on peak experiences and metaphysics

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Praxius It wasn't until I took my independance and my decisions and went on my own path in life. As I said, I wasn't looking for the answer at the time.... the answer came to me.

The answer did not come to you, but you yourself is the answer !!!!!

It lies within you only. You rightly observed as if you went inside your arm's skin, to watch the reality in yourself; what you called it as going into inside the atom and watch from inside. In fact, you watched your ownself from inside, which were actually multi-universes !!!Even after experiencing the whole thing, it might be difficult to you to understand what I am saying now and in further paragraphs. Others, obviously would have to call that flatly "a Big BS" !!!

The only word, which troubled me in your experience is ATOM. This is a term which science has framed into your mind. I honestly could not understand, what you mean going inside the atom, when you are not knowing, how Atom looks like even in electron microscope. You might had at the base of mind, atom is made up of electrons, protons and neutrons etc. May be, you were also having knowledge of electronic charge levels (electric charge clouds) in an atom...and the like..

I do not think, you have gone physically inside the atom, in physical sense of it. But, you have concentrated deep inside your own self (individual consciousness) and then nature has revealed you the glimpse of universal consciousness, which keeps everything live (infintely huge, many many times larger than our universe). Then, slowly within a minute, your attention got drawn to your individual consciousness and you became as before. Without your deep rooted wish to know the reality, nature would have never revealed the scene you experienced. I can blindly bet on that !!!

I am aware about the difficulty, you are facing or have faced, in expressing your experience in words. How you know your pupils were dilated?? I think you got enormous information at a time, which made you feel that you are watching much more than normal, so you felt your pupils are dilated !!! To me, it is all your mind's work. Physical identities, shapes and sizes are not much important in such experiences !!! improvident, is very correct in saying "your attention was deeper than normal and making a meaning out of it as you wished "

If you re-read my post, describing the difference between Individual consciousness and universal consciousness. You would find I said, "On erasing your personal ego of existence or individual consciousness, you would merge into universal consciousness." Now finally "Have faith in that YOU are everything but ignorance checks you to confirm it and devlopd faith in that reality you experienced. Still, you are the master,
you can overcome that ignorance !!!!

To conclude, I thank you to allow me to describe my mind, in view of your experience. Otherwise, who would agree what I talk is the actual reality !!!!

[Praxius]

Quote by: Kuldeep The answer did not come to you, but you yourself is the answer !!!!! It lies within you only. You rightly observed as if you went inside your arm's skin, to watch the reality in yourself; what you called it as going into inside the atom and watch from inside. In fact, you watched your ownself from inside, which were actually multi-universes !!!Even after experiencing the whole thing, it might be difficult to you to understand what I am saying now and in further paragraphs. Others, obviously would have to call that flatly "a Big BS" !!!

They can call something BS if they want, towards something they know nothing about or could relate..... however the multiple people I have gotten to experience what I was talking about would say otherwise.... so it's not just in my head alone.

The only word, which troubled me in your experience is ATOM. This is a term which science has framed into your mind. I honestly could not understand, what you mean going inside the atom, when you are not knowing, how Atom looks like even in electron microscope. You might had at the base of mind, atom is made up of electrons, protons and neutrons etc. May be, you were also having knowledge of electronic charge levels (electric charge clouds) in an atom...and the like..

Well you're starting to ask the right questions anyways.... An Atom might be something Science has thrown into my head... but everything in our heads came from external media to begin with. I believe in Atoms, because they must exist..... they split them to make nuclear explosions, so whatever they are spliting must exist..... they call it an atom, so I call it an atom. Remember.... my beliefs are a combination of all science and religion..... and much more, which is why you may get confused at what I am trying to say at times.

atom is made up of electrons, protons and neutrons etc

indeed.... and I am seeking for information further then that..... ie: what makes those electrons, protons and the sort exist, to form an atom?

I've never dabbled into anything detailed towards physics, chemistry, or Atoms in directly.... all of what I know now, is from my experience and anything I researched after the experience.

I'm originally an artists, animator, creator, so to speak.... more so then a science wiz, rocket scientist, etc.....

t think, you have gone physically inside the atom, in physical sense of it. But, you have concentrated deep inside your own self (individual consciousness) and then nature has revealed you the glimpse of universal consciousness, which keeps everything live (infintely huge, many many times larger than our universe). Then, slowly within a minute, your attention got drawn to your individual consciousness and you became as before. Without your deep rooted wish to know the reality, nature would have never revealed the scene you experienced. I can blindly bet on that !!!

Perhaps.... the main thing I noticed is, unless you got enough of the puzzle pieces together, even if this experience came to you, you wouldn't understand what was being shown.... you'd just think you were tripping out.

I've looked into other religions, other concepts and beliefs.... so perhaps all of those things were already in my head, stored away.... and when I figured how everything is connected to one another, all of what is stored in my memory was thrown into order..... it's interesting.... LSD is something many would considder a drug that makes no sense, is for tripping out, and just to screw with your head....... however I find it organizes your thoughts, experiences, imagination and everything in the timeline in order for you, so much so, that is too organizaed and too simple, you can't imagine what is real.

The other problem is, that although there is truth and answers, there are also plenty of things you have to determine what is not real..... it's a real exercise for the mind..... so long as you have strong mental disapline.

I am aware about the difficulty, you are facing or have faced, in expressing your experience in words. How you know your pupils were dilated?? I think you got enormous information at a time, which made you feel that you are watching much more than normal, so you felt your pupils are dilated !!! To me, it is all your mind's work. Physical identities, shapes and sizes are not much important in such experiences !!! improvident, is very correct in saying "your attention was deeper than normal and making a meaning out of it as you wished "

See that's the difficulty in explaining something to someone who hasn't experienced it..... I knew my pupils were dialated, because my friends told me so..... that and I saw them in the mirror..... they were physically dialated.... quite a lot:

Example:


^ As you can see, the pupil is extremely open..... this is also the same effect that Shrooms and Extasy have on your eyes. E doesn't have a strong visual effect on you (Depending on the type) and the most you get is a hazy/fuzzy look to things.... a very very mild similarity to shrooms/LSD.

When your eyes are dilated such as this, you are allowing more light and information to pass through, therefore you will see colors more intense, and possibly more details in things you don't normally see.

If you re-read my post, describing the difference between Individual consciousness and universal consciousness. You would find I said, "On erasing your personal ego of existence or individual consciousness, you would merge into universal consciousness." Now finally "Have faith in that YOU are everything but ignorance checks you to confirm it and devlopd faith in that reality you experienced. Still, you are the master, you can overcome that ignorance !!!! To conclude, I thank you to allow me to describe my mind, in view of your experience. Otherwise, who would agree what I talk is the actual reality !!!!

But Universal and Individual are one in the same thing..... you can't serperate the two in what I experienced. We are only aware of a small part of our consciousness (What you call Actual Reality)

I had no personal ego to defend in my experience..... what I experienced, in my current way of living and connection in time, one could not seperate themselves from the experience as you say, because I am currently living. In order to get the perspective you are talking about, from my understanding of what you are explaining, and what I have experienced.... in order for it all to work, I would either have to be dead to see the timeline and existance as you decribed, or I would have to be dreaming in 3rd person..... which wouldn't be real either.....

Like I said, I didn't go physically into the Atom.... I just looked into it.... what connected to my brain to the atom is what went for the travel.... in the back of my mind.... it was the same part of my brain that conected me to other's thoughts....

Think of it as a wireless internet adapter with a USB 2.0 port you had since you were born..... and your brain only supports a Serial port..... you got this thing in your head you can't or don't know how to use yet.... I and many others in this world have activated this internet adapter (either by accident or by choice) and has connected us to things unknown to the global community..... nor will ever be known until people actually take the time to look into it.

We're all currently communicated on a 33.8k modem, when in a little while.... we're all gonna find out we got a 10Mbit Cable Connection we can use..... I think that's what I'm trying to get at.

Bottom line.... our current existance, our current problems.... war, racism, money, polotics..... it's all so trivial.... even if a Nuclear war was to occur..... we'll survive.

[Kuldeep]

Quote by: Praxius however the multiple people I have gotten to experience what I was talking about would say otherwise.... so it's not just in my head alone.

Obviously all those, who would go inside, would watch identical experience. Since, the reality is one. I did not say you framed your own imagined experience. I said the reality could be watched only when you went inside (inside does not mean inside body but, inside your own mind). That reality always exists and could be seen by any number of people, who can go inside their mind and watch!!

Remember.... my beliefs are a combination of all science and religion..... and much more, which is why you may get confused at what I am trying to say at times. indeed.... and I am seeking for information further then that..... ie: what makes those electrons, protons and the sort exist, to form an atom? I've never dabbled into anything detailed towards physics, chemistry, or Atoms in directly.... all of what I know now, is from my experience and anything I researched after the experience.

Fine!! I should rather ask you what your research results after the experience say about following doubts:

What is behind electron, protons and what brings charge into them?

Is there God, heaven, hell as mentioned in most of the leading religions?

In the mean time, please go through what I feel about above questions:

Yes, it is a fact, nothing science, religion, nature or so to say full universe is not out side the reality you experienced. I have not experienced but I feel as if it is even more vast, more fine and subtler than what you expressed. I feel even your experience is still a part of whole reality.... and that is the Devine power!!!! I feel that Devine power is behind the charge of electrons, protons...etc and which is responsible in maintaining them eternally as property of my SOMETHING. I have not used the word "forming" since I do not think there can be system of creator/creation sort of thing out there. I feel something is there, which has just one property, which you experienced and believe there are many such more properties, since infinity is surely infinite!!!

I'm originally an artists, animator, creator, so to speak.... more so then a science wiz, rocket scientist, etc.....

I am scientist by profession but a logical thinker by nature!

Perhaps.... the main thing I noticed is, unless you got enough of the puzzle pieces together, even if this experience came to you, you wouldn't understand what was being shown.... you'd just think you were tripping out. I've looked into other religions, other concepts and beliefs.... so perhaps all of those things were already in my head, stored away.... and when I figured how everything is connected to one another, all of what is stored in my memory was thrown into order..... it's interesting.... LSD is something many would considder a drug that makes no sense, is for tripping out, and just to screw with your head....... however I find it organizes your thoughts, experiences, imagination and everything in the timeline in order for you, so much so, that is too organizaed and too simple, you can't imagine what is real.

To my mind, tripped and organized mind are two extremities equidistant from normal functioning mind. Consider the three minds on different levels represented by a vertical straight-line segment in x-y plane. Tripped mind and organized mind would fall at two extreme points while; normal mind would fall at the mid point of the line segment. Neither tripped mind nor the organized mind make any sense to normal mind. Now, again consider the line segment is converted into a circle, the points representing tripped mind and organized mind would thus coincide and normal mind would fall equally away from both, as it was on straight-line segment. Circle representation proves the chances of inter conversion of tripped mind to organized mind and vice-versa as evident. The controller of remaining into tripped mind or organized mind is the SELF (Person in question).

This, I had to explain to make you understand that to remain in organized form of mind, you are right to say enough puzzle pieces ought to be brought together by way of knowledge of religions, faith...etc. It has been all your own self's strength which kept you in organized form of mind. But, I am confident that the organizing property of the mind does not lie in LSD as you have felt. LSD is just a drug but you are the master and the controller of your mind. You felt LSD organized because you were strong willed person and were able to control the tripping situation which would have come up otherwise in case of weak, less informed, less knowledgeable person. Had it not be so, later on, you could not have similar experience without LSD and just while smoking an ordinary pipe!!

Just try LSD on a weak dull type of person!! I am confident he would be tripped out.... I hope I am clear in my point!!!

The other problem is, that although there is truth and answers, there are also plenty of things you have to determine what is not real..... it's a real exercise for the mind..... so long as you have strong mental disapline.

Precisely I have explained that above!!!

See that's the difficulty in explaining something to someone who hasn't experienced it..... I knew my pupils were dialated, because my friends told me so..... that and I saw them in the mirror..... they were physically dialated.... quite a lot: Example: ^ As you can see, the pupil is extremely open..... this is also the same effect that Shrooms and Extasy have on your eyes. E doesn't have a strong visual effect on you (Depending on the type) and the most you get is a hazy/fuzzy look to things.... a very very mild similarity to shrooms/LSD. When your eyes are dilated such as this, you are allowing more light and information to pass through, therefore you will see colors more intense, and possibly more details in things you don't normally see.

O.K. I followed. Similar pupils dilate when ophthalmologist put ointment for checking inside of eyeball. Even indifferent moods make eye pupil dilate.

But Universal and Individual are one in the same thing..... you can't separate the two in what I experienced. We are only aware of a small part of our consciousness (What you call Actual Reality) I had no personal ego to defend in my experience..... what I experienced, in my current way of living and connection in time, one could not separate themselves from the experience as you say, because I am currently living. In order to get the perspective you are talking about, from my understanding of what you are explaining, and what I have experienced.... in order for it all to work, I would either have to be dead to see the timeline and existence as you described, or I would have to be dreaming in 3rd person..... which wouldn't be real either.....

You have misunderstood me. By ego I never meant proud, I mean duality. Duality I mean feeling of separate identity! You need not be dead to have that feeling. In that case, in your mind you would feel your existence in every thing including in your own self!!!

[/quote]

Bottom line.... our current existance, our current problems.... war, racism, money, polotics..... it's all so trivial.... even if a Nuclear war was to occur..... we'll survive. [/quote]

Yes, we'll survive!!!!! We are eternal...sometimes with body while; sometimes without body.... no problem!!!

[improvident]

I've looked into other religions, other concepts and beliefs.... so perhaps all of those things were already in my head, stored away.... and when I figured how everything is connected to one another, all of what is stored in my memory was thrown into order..... it's interesting.... LSD is something many would considder a drug that makes no sense, is for tripping out, and just to screw with your head....... however I find it organizes your thoughts, experiences, imagination and everything in the timeline in order for you, so much so, that is too organizaed and too simple, you can't imagine what is real.

That.. is.. dare i say.. worded perfectly.. i dont know if the huge flux in information is due to the dialeted pupil.. or just the acid in general..visually the pupils are all of it.. and sometimes yes.. the visual aid is all that is needed to organize all those thoughts and put them together to complete the puzzle.. but im not so sure it can be blamed for the whole experience..when you trip shrooms your eyes are just as dialated.. yet the connections dont happen the same..


Kul

If you re-read my post, describing the difference between Individual consciousness and universal consciousness. You would find I said, "On erasing your personal ego of existence or individual consciousness, you would merge into universal consciousness." Now finally "Have faith in that YOU are everything but ignorance checks you to confirm it and devlopd faith in that reality you experienced. Still, you are the master, you can overcome that ignorance !!!!

Mr. Deep.. I dig the way you think..i agree with your views on individual vs universal consciousness.. its the easiest.. and as i see it.. the only way to explain dreams.. dream like states.. and even tripping.. you are your own master.. over everything.. its realizing it.. and having 100% complete confidence in the fact.. that you make whatever you want to happen.. happen.. but dare i say it is easier to whole heartedly believe this while tripping shrooms or LSD.. because your mind is thinking in different ways.. making new connections its not used to.. connections where doubt.. doesn't exist.. I distinctively remember my 1st shroom trip.. i was COMPLETELY in power of everything.. i could look at something.. and manipulate it any way i wanted to.. was this my eye.. or my mind playing tricks on me.. or was it proof of universal consciousness? More so that reality.. isnt 'reality' than universal consciousness.. that we are here.. and what we see,taste,smell,and physically feel.. is only a product of our minds.. because we cant at the moment with current brain usage.. or in being a human grasp the concept that we arent what we are...

You have misunderstood me. By ego I never meant proud, I mean duality. Duality I mean feeling of separate identity! You need not be dead to have that feeling. In that case, in your mind you would feel your existence in every thing including in your own self!!!

you dont have to be dead to feel this other side.. nor tripping.. focus.. inner focus.. i dont know the proper term to use is.. basically.. being more aware of yourself.. to the point that you dont even recognize yourself in a room.. but you are so completely aware of everything going on around you.. sounds movements emotions everything around you becomes more evident.. because you arent thinking about yourself.. your thinking about.. the whole situation.. I blame society.. and thus selfishness.. a byproduct of modern society.. for a lack of this thinking around the world.. especially here in the states.. you are told your whole life to make yourself happy.. and to put yourself 1st.. maybe not outright told this.. but its everywhere.. almost inescapable.. Ive tried for as long as i can remember to separate my mind from my body as best i could.. and from sitting quietly stoned out of my mind with some close friends basically every day.. sometimes twice a day or more for a little over a year.. i think ive done a decent job at it.. i can sit in a room now.. and know what each person is thinking.. feeling.. saying.. even if im not looking at them.. its almost like ive developed a 6th sense of sorts.. i think the separation..is a 'version' of this universal consciousness.. which i will now refer to as UC cause.. its wayyy too much to type...Now i just dont know where to go spiritually with this idea.. is UC even spiritual.. or is it beyond spiritual?

My apologies for the rant.. i got to thinking.. and im already scatter brained.. if pieces and parts dont match up or make sense.. please feel free to ask.. ill attempt to word myself better

[Praxius]

Just to point out here, I'm by no means trying to make an argument with any of my posts, but rather attempting to understand some things you are talking about, and to also clarify something I might have said that may seem misunderstood:

Quote by: Kuldeep Obviously all those, who would go inside, would watch identical experience. Since, the reality is one. I did not say you framed your own imagined experience. I said the reality could be watched only when you went inside (inside does not mean inside body but, inside your own mind). That reality always exists and could be seen by any number of people, who can go inside their mind and watch!!

Well as I said, it's very difficult to explain in words.... it's not like I virtually or literally went inside my arm or an atom or mind for that matter.... I guess the best word to discribe it, is Phased.... I didn't go inside, but rather everything came out....

When I look at something now and observe it with sober eyes, I can adapt and use what I have experienced to see existance in everything.

Only one other I have gotten to see directly what I was talking about, and I played a riddle with it to make sure I didn't influence too much what they experienced. Eventually after about 20 mins, their eyes popped open (More so then normal) and they freaked.... more so in excitment once they figured out what I was getting at.... and to confirm, I asked them to discribe what they experienced in detail.

Fine!! I should rather ask you what your research results after the experience say about following doubts: What is behind electron, protons and what brings charge into them?

A multitude of consousness that exists all over the universe. Each existance plays it's own role in this universe for a perfect balance, however each is pretty much unaware of the other.....

When anything in this existance dies or ends, be that a star, animal, human, plant, alien, etc..... it all returns to where the so-called Big Bang Originated.... where we started to exist in this relm of existance.

In fact, please see my post #2 on page one for an explination to most of these questions:

......And then I went on a little journey..... my mind started to visualize zooming further into the atoms, down to one atom, then through the atom, beyond it's outer structure and then I was in space.... or what looked like space..... I seen a trail of colorful streams of what are now blurs of existence.... what came, what is now, what is to come...... all the many possibilities of what is to come...... and then I pulled out of the streams and I was back into space, zooming by planets, suns, stars, back to planets, and then the planets began to become more familiar to the ones we have around us...... then I saw mars, then earth, then Canada, then Nova Scotia, then right where I live, right back to where I was sitting with my arm to my face........ I then realized that everything is connected in almost every way, in the most simplistic manner. The black space that contains our stars and universe, is the inside section of one atom. What energizes an atom is the universe and us. What keeps the universe and us continuing to exist is the atom.

Is there God, heaven, hell as mentioned in most of the leading religions?

No.... not as religions explain Heaven..... and there certainly is not a hell.... What I would considder Heaven.... what others speak of as a bright light in a tunnel, that they head to, where they can communicate with loved ones passed away, and the sort.... It falls along the lines of a Heaven..... in which I can understand older religions' interpretations to what we think a Heaven is now.

Please review my post here:

Afterlife

Post #43 Pg. 2

This explains in a nutshell what I considder as Heaven.

In the mean time, please go through what I feel about above questions: Yes, it is a fact, nothing science, religion, nature or so to say full universe is not out side the reality you experienced. I have not experienced but I feel as if it is even more vast, more fine and subtler than what you expressed. I feel even your experience is still a part of whole reality.... and that is the Devine power!!!! I feel that Devine power is behind the charge of electrons, protons...etc and which is responsible in maintaining them eternally as property of my SOMETHING. I have not used the word "forming" since I do not think there can be system of creator/creation sort of thing out there. I feel something is there, which has just one property, which you experienced and believe there are many such more properties, since infinity is surely infinite!!!

Think of the old Infinate icon:



It is simple and subtler as you said.... it just sounds more complicated because I'm trying to explain it in words.....

Atoms make us up and form energy.... we exist..... at the same time, we make up the Atoms...... our existance and our living our lives makes Atoms exist..... We fuel their energy.... There is no One God..... there is only a collective from what I experienced..... this one large collective.... the light at the end of the tunnel, is all of us passed present and future.... we take what we have experienced and lived here in this existance, and when we die we take it back to the collective to educate and better understand life and interaction in this universe.

When the Big Squish occurs... everything in this universe will cease to exist.... and in theory, the big squish will produce yet another Big Bang, and create a whole new Universe to live in and explore..... and learn. Our overall existance..... our "Afterlife" isn't in this universe or existance as we know it.

To my mind, tripped and organized mind are two extremities equidistant from normal functioning mind. Consider the three minds on different levels represented by a vertical straight-line segment in x-y plane. Tripped mind and organized mind would fall at two extreme points while; normal mind would fall at the mid point of the line segment. Neither tripped mind nor the organized mind make any sense to normal mind. Now, again consider the line segment is converted into a circle, the points representing tripped mind and organized mind would thus coincide and normal mind would fall equally away from both, as it was on straight-line segment. Circle representation proves the chances of inter conversion of tripped mind to organized mind and vice-versa as evident. The controller of remaining into tripped mind or organized mind is the SELF (Person in question). This, I had to explain to make you understand that to remain in organized form of mind,

Yeah I think now I'm figuring out what you're talking about, lol. But your reference to the tripped mind, I don't think is all that accurate..... it's close per say, but I personally think you need to experience what you are trying to identify.

you are right to say enough puzzle pieces ought to be brought together by way of knowledge of religions, faith...etc. It has been all your own self's strength which kept you in organized form of mind. But, I am confident that the organizing property of the mind does not lie in LSD as you have felt. LSD is just a drug but you are the master and the controller of your mind. You felt LSD organized because you were strong willed person and were able to control the tripping situation which would have come up otherwise in case of weak, less informed, less knowledgeable person. Had it not be so, later on, you could not have similar experience without LSD and just while smoking an ordinary pipe!!

Trust me, there are times when the LSD can take over and you just sit there and freak.... it's about how much you take that determines how much strength you have towards the drug...... two hits or more is what made me connect to what I experienced, however it was also the same amount for me to go over the edge.....

Once I figured it all out.... I kinda relaxed my mind a bit, and then the visuals kicked in and I was kinda lost for an hour or so..... I couldn't determine what was reality and not..... I account this to my overload of information and I think I temporaraly burnt something, lol. There have been times where I have done the same amount, but not freak.... but when you get an overload, you're not so mentally strong as you once were..... it's complicated, lol.

But what you say about total control over your life and choices, I agree.... there is no one master being out there who's gonna come down and save you.... there is no big pit called hell where you will suffer.... it's all related to early religions invoking fear and adding structure to those who fear the unknown.

[Praxius]

Just try LSD on a weak dull type of person!! I am confident he would be tripped out.... I hope I am clear in my point!!!

Kinda.... bare with me.... I think our accents are messing up the understanding, lol.

I can trip out plenty.... sometimes it overwelms you too much..... when it makes no sense, it makes no sense..... but when it wants to show you something and your mind is ready for it.... everything falls into place. I have seen those with weaker minds.... and everybody takes LSD into their systems a different way.... it all takes time and patience to understand what LSD is really doing to you..... much like it took on and off a few years to get me to where I am now.

O.K. I followed. Similar pupils dilate when ophthalmologist put ointment for checking inside of eyeball. Even indifferent moods make eye pupil dilate.

True.... I couldn't remember what they called that stuff they put in your eyes. But you will notice under certain intense lighting or under the medication the doctors put into your eyes to check them..... you will notice you absorb a lot of light and information, sober or not.... when you wake up at night, your pupils are wide open trying to gather as much infomation as possible..... then when you hit the light.... BAM.... you gotta close your eyes, because it's too intense..... hince the pupils open wide..... then you will see your eyes adjust to smaller pupils to reduce the ammount of information in at one time.

I feel LSD and Shrooms have a similar effect, but with a few additions.

Yes, we'll survive!!!!! We are eternal...sometimes with body while; sometimes without body.... no problem!!!

Agreed. There is plenty more after this life, that I am most asured of.

[Praxius]

Quote by: improvident That.. is.. dare i say.. worded perfectly.. i dont know if the huge flux in information is due to the dialeted pupil.. or just the acid in general..visually the pupils are all of it.. and sometimes yes.. the visual aid is all that is needed to organize all those thoughts and put them together to complete the puzzle.. but im not so sure it can be blamed for the whole experience..when you trip shrooms your eyes are just as dialated.. yet the connections dont happen the same..

I dunno... I find Shrooms are a more natural, mellower version of LSD.... you still see things, most of the experience is about the same.

I think you hit it on the button though.... The visual aid is all that is needed to organize.... Everything around you is still where it is and was when you were sober.... it all is still the same objects you knew they were.... but the LSD in the eyes, make you see them move, so to speak..... and this movement, if you study it..... it's at the molecular level..... Once you see it.... you start to understand it.

[Zhavric]

Ever had a migraine headache?

Not a really severe headache. A migraine. You know when you have a migraine.

The first part of a migraine is a blind spot in your field of vision. You can't actually see it, but you know it's there because your brain "shades in" the spot with whatever image is next to it. Imagine looking at someone's face and realizing you can't see their mouth. You can see it if you glance away, but that just makes something else disapear. Instead of a mouth, you see the skin around where their mouth is.

Yeah. Creepy.

That lasts for a few minutes. The blind spot gets bigger and eventually becomes sparkles. Rub your eyes real hard. Go ahead. I'll wait...

... See those sparkles? The ones that disapear after a few moments? Imagine if some of them didn't disapear. Imagine if they just hung in your field of vision for minutes on end. You can see things around them and they'll eventually go away... and they move very slowly. You can expect to lose 30-70% of your field of vision when they're there.

If you're driving you should have pulled over a long time ago.

This whole thing, it lasts about an hour. This weird sequence plays itself out for me every ten to thirty days and has for the last thirteen years.

It's the first part of a migraine.

For reasons science hasn't uncovered yet, the blood vessels in your neck and scalp slowly constrict. The constriction limits the flow of blood to the optic center of your brain. The blind spot and sparkles? They're the optical equivalent of the pins & needles you feel when your foot falls asleep.

The pain of a migraine comes later when the blood vessels unconstrict and then dilate. This dilation allows too much blood to flood through your head and causes fun symptoms like pain, nausea, diarhea, pain, light sensitivity, pain, sound sensitivity, vomitting, vertigo, and an all around redefinition in the afflicted of the term "misery".

Never mind that bit.

The important part here is the sparkles. The lights you see when yourr blood vessels are contricting the oxygen feed to part of your brain. They look real save for following your vision around. But they're not there. They're just a figment.

The brain is a virtual reality machine. Your eyes don't "see" anything. They take in light which is transfered into a morse code of electrical / chemical impulses that your brain makes into an image.

Throw in some interesting chemicals and this virtual reality machine starts to do odd things.

That's all.

There's no deeper meaning to reality to be found by jacking with your brain's chemistry. There's no path to spirituality. It's just a way to see fun lights, odd shapes and things that aren't there. Scientists could learn from studying you, but you'll never learn anything because it's a dead end.

The sparkles I see when I get my migraines have never spelled out any letters or formed into any shape other than lumps. There's no deeper meaning there or with LSD.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Zhavric The brain is a virtual reality machine. Your eyes don't "see" anything. They take in light which is transfered into a morse code of electrical / chemical impulses that your brain makes into an image. Throw in some interesting chemicals and this virtual reality machine starts to do odd things. That's all. There's no deeper meaning to reality to be found by jacking with your brain's chemistry. There's no path to spirituality. It's just a way to see fun lights, odd shapes and things that aren't there. Scientists could learn from studying you, but you'll never learn anything because it's a dead end. The sparkles I see when I get my migraines have never spelled out any letters or formed into any shape other than lumps. There's no deeper meaning there or with LSD.

Interesting theory. I too have had the flashes in my eyes from different periods of time in my life, but they in no way relate to what you experience on LSD.... you are trying to relate two different things, two different effects to the system, as being one. With that same reasoning, I could say the same thing towards any of our senses and how they interp. things.... then one would have to ask.... why do we disqualify one thing over another?

What makes what we see everyday real, and other things not?

Your reasoning about how the eyes don't see anything..... I understand you are trying to boil it down to electrodes and electrical information..... but then where does the term "See" come from then? That also must mean our tounge doesn't taste, our noses don't smell.... our hands don't touch.

Of course it all comes back to the brain as electrical messages, but where do you draw the line when it comes to what you interperate as real, or logical? What makes one thing more "Real" over the next?

Yes, I am aware of the effect LSD has on the senses, and yes I understand how it makes one trip out and have a good ol time..... I've had plenty.... But the moment something comes my way that makes absolute perfect sense to everything around me.... something that could explain all my questions.... something that shows a connection to everything and where and why we are here...... even when sober it still makes perfect sense.... why just toss something like that out the window because it had an influence of another drug in the system?

Frig, we're all on Drugs as Weazer says..... if it's not recreational, it's perscribed.... if it's not perscribed, then we get it in a store.... We're either all on Tobacco, Sugar, Alcohol, Anti-Depresants,Cafine, Heart Medication, or something else in our lives......

With that same mentality, anything you come up with, or anybody else for that matter comes up with something, all one has to do is check up on their background..... find that they were influenced by a beer, or a glass of milk.... and then discount it because they were not sober or of 100% sound mind.

Most of the people who come up with those great movies, or great albums.... or one of the greatest minds of our times.... the majority of them all have had some influence from illegal drugs at some point in their lives..... take Super Mario Bros. for example

Perhaps I didn't understand the point you were trying to make.... but to my understanding you seem to be claiming that even if something makes sense, sounds logical, can answer many questions unanswered.... if there is some influence of any outside substance, it must be invalid?

One question:

There's no deeper meaning to reality to be found by jacking with your brain's chemistry. There's no path to spirituality. It's just a way to see fun lights, odd shapes and things that aren't there. Scientists could learn from studying you, but you'll never learn anything because it's a dead end.

Of course that's your opinion, however how come so many cultures and older Native religions, which seemed so in-tune with nature and their own enviroment around them, that they have always had a long history of intergrating what we now label as "Illegal Drugs" with their teachings?

Psychoactive drug - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ritual and spiritual use Certain psychoactives, particularly hallucinogens, have been used for religious purposes since prehistoric times. Native Americans have used mescaline-containing peyote cacti for religious ceremonies for as long as 5700 years. The muscimol-containing amanita mushroom was used for ritual purposes throughout prehistoric Europe. Various other hallucinogens, including jimsonweed, psilocybin mushrooms, and cannabis have been used in religious ceremonies for centuries. There is speculation that hallucinogenic mushrooms and cacti greatly influenced the major religions of India, North and South America, the Middle East, and Europe, including Christianity. The use of hallucinogens for religious purposes resurfaced in the West during the counterculture movements of the 1960s and 70's. Under the leadership of Timothy Leary, new religious movements began to use LSD and other hallucinogens as sacraments. However, in the United States, the use of hallucinogens for ritual purposes is legal only for members of the Native American Church, which is allowed to cultivate and distribute peyote.

The majority of most religions today derived from some drug or another.... it was their interpretations of what they experienced that layed the foundation for most of today's religions...... Myself.... I'm taking it one step backwards.... in which I mean, I sure as hell don't want to add another religion to the pile of crap already out there..... I am merely trying to add a more updated interpretation of what all of these other people probably experienced.

What I have experienced, I know for a fact, I am not the only one who has.... so it's not just some random thing that occured while I was tripping from shits and giggles....

Like when you are quite sober and you open a door, all your senses and self being knows that you opened that door..... I know when I am just tripping out and having fun..... and I know when I have literally opened a door.

There is a lot of information during an experience with LSD that just doesn't make sense, or is confusing.... but when all your senses, all your emotions, all of what you are converges into one concept.... one answer.... one explination.... and it all makes perfect sense compared to anything some sober guy down the street read in the paper by someone else..... you don't just ignore something like that.

No matter how valid or invalid, logical or illogical anything is in the world around me.... I account it, I value the input, and I add it to the pile of knowlege I have collected thus far. Something that may seem illogical today, might make perfect sense tomorrow.

[Kuldeep]

I have also experienced migraine headache for over 30 years. At times I felt confused, not knowing what to do. It appeared as if death is near. But, with all that Praxius's experience is different.

It is very vital question that "What we see is it real or virtual??

[Praxius]

I think the main point I was trying to get at when it comes to alterations to our bodies from outside substances, is that we as a society seem to enjoy classifying one thing, but ignore another which has the same traits.

What I mean by this is this:

- Every chemical we ingest has an effect on our systems....
- Drink Coffee, and you perk up.... you gain a quick boost of energy, you wake up.
- Take Steroids, and your muscles increase, you become stronger, more agressive due to testosterone increasing.
- Drink alcohol, you senses become numbed.... your mouth and lips feel a bit like rubber, just prior to being tanked.
- Take Calcium pills and you will see your body gradually improve in health, watch your teeth and bones become stronger.....

^ Now all of the above, most would not discount..... most of the above is true as most would know from their own experiences. Therefore..... if all of this can and is true, then why do some here like to dissqualify anything relating to LSD as being some trip..... some halucination that goes nowhere.... something that has no meaning..... and then dismiss it?

Nothing I have explained can exactly be proven to any of you (Unless you went under the same experience I have) however, that sure as hell doesn't mean that it doesn't have value, that it might actually be possible.

With Steroids being illegal because of the side effects and the main effects.... in how it makes you stronger and develop muscles much faster, who is to say LSD and related drugs wouldn't have the same effect on the brain? Who is to say that it doesn't activate something in the brain?? Something that isn't normally active?

Think about it..... There were millions and millions of Hippies back in the day.... they all found a common connection between each other.... pretty much all of them were high strung on LSD and then some...... they seemed to have a good concept on how we should live..... but they lacked the devotion and the ability to be forceful for change and they died out, LSD became illegal and that was the last of that.

It became illegal mostly because of the ammount of resistance the government recieved during it's peak...... people started to think for themselves.... they started to see the lies about the Veitnam War.... they seen the inequality in the world, and they seen just how perfectly simple we all could live..... and they had it all right on the button.......

But once again, they lacked the ammount of spine required to keep a movement going.... they got oppressed and jailed..... and by the 70's the whole novelty wore off.... because no change was being made....... so then all of this was forgotten.

Hince why I considder myself a New Age Hippy.

[improvident]

Doesnt being a 'New Age Hippy' mean you.. me.. and all others who accept that title should do what our counterparts from yesteryear failed to do? Make change ....

[Praxius]

Quote by: improvident Doesnt being a 'New Age Hippy' mean you.. me.. and all others who accept that title should do what our counterparts from yesteryear failed to do? Make change ....

I'm not asking anybody to do anything.... If I did exactly what they did, I wouldn't be a New-Age.... I'd just be a typically labeled Hippy.....

My beliefs are more of a merging of many many concepts, beliefs etc. as I mentioned before..... my way of living is similar to how they used to live, but modified to survive and adapt in todays way of life.

Old Hippies honestly and generally didn't make much sense to the rest of society, which is a given, since the Drug was new and nobody knew at the time how to interpret it...... and didn't make much sense to me either, what they were trying to explain...... but I have adapted to understand where they were coming from, and I try and explain in more updated understanding, such as I am doing in this thread, to possibly explain better what they possibly experienced and what they were trying to get everyone to understand.

The only change I am trying to make here is the level of understanding of it all..... everything will fall in place after that......

I have no need to force anything on anybody to attempt to change their opinions without then wanting it...... Hippies kinda figured out the whole world would hook onto LSD and they'd all join the lifestyle...... but it didn't happen..... because they were so dam high all the time, they made no sense.

[yourwrong]

Your ideas are nothing new
Tao - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Technosoul]

Old ideas are new if you discover them for your self while they are fresh in your mind, before finding out that others in the past had the same or simular insights.

The knowing that all good concepts and theories have simular aspects, from the anicent TAO (book of nature) to modern science, demonstrates the existence of a unified understanding,

In my opinon.

Sometimes we can see where human advancement is the side effect of a culture after the withdraw from drugs takes place. The drugs produce the visionary creativity and then once sober that data (ability) can be put into practical useage.

Withdraws sometimes ocur through migrations of people from one area to another, leaving behind the environment where the plants (etc.) grew that they used to make those brews (whatever) for the vision quests.

In native tribes that continued the use of the natural drug we see they did not progress materialistically because they are content with experiencing the vision within.
But when isolated or seperated from the natural drug they manifested the vision externally with building projects and technology of different sorts. The effect of the visionary impact can be handed down genetically for a few generations (or longer?).

For example a wonderful building might be the external vision that was created with physical properties materialistically - so people experience the vision as a building rather then experiencing the vision directly within their minds chemically.

I do not have any links for that observation, it just came to me from out of the blue.