Lit discussion, anyone?

[CoffeeSaint]

Over the last few days I have run into brief discussions of Sophocles's tragedy Antigone, William Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet, and John Knowles's POS bildungsroman A Separate Peace, and, well, enough is enough. It's time we had a place for literary discussion.

Any literature is welcome; anyone who wants to can come in here and throw out a title, see if you get a response. My only request is that we keep it to literature; if you want to discuss a non-fiction book, fine, but discuss its merits in terms of story-telling or literary craftsmanship, not whether it speaks the Truth or not.

Let's start off with a few simple questions: answer any or all that you feel like.

1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?

5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature?

6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)

7. What makes a good book?

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?

[CoffeeSaint]

1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?

Several to choose from. Probably the narrator from "The Telltale Heart," by Poe, because it's the perfect example of first-person narration; the story actually makes you feel insane, and also makes you realize the beauty and, er, logic in that insanity.

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?

Favorite poem is "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" by Dylan Thomas. Favorite poet is either Poe or Robert Frost. Here's Frost:
"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both,
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could,
To where it bent in the undergrowth."

Yeah, that's from memory. What now?

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?
I think so, yes. The style is consistent, the same themes come up again and again. But I've never studied the debate. Don't really know why I asked this, apart from some way to bring up the Bard.

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?
Hell no.

5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature?
I think if the author is still alive, it's modern literature. If we still read it after the writer is dead, it gets to be a classic.

6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)
This is effectively a marketing scam, and it's crap. Good novels defy definition. Ray Bradbury, for instance, is still alive, yet his novel Fahrenheit 451 is considered a classic, and it's a work of science fiction -- yet it's literary enough to be part of the canon.

7. What makes a good book?

Good characters. Everything else is disposable.

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?

No. People need to read, and need to use their own imagination, instead of paying $10 to borrow some Hollywood hack's. That being said, the best movie adaptation from a book is Lord of the Rings.

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?
The Mayor of Casterbridge by Thomas Hardy, or Anna Karenina by who cares.

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?

I'll refrain from answering now, because it's late.

[CliveStaples]

1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?

Raskolnikov or Dante. Good examples of repentance and redemption, and the fallibility of man.

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?

Holy Sonnet XIV, I believe, by John Donne:

"Death, be not proud, tho some have called thee mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;"

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?

Sure. Largely irrelevant.

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?

No. It's a novel about racism.

5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature?

About 60 years.

6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)

They're the same thing. Poe wrote horror, Shakespeare wrote romance.

7. What makes a good book?

Equanimity between the intent of the author, the work of the author, and the reception of the reader.

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?

Some; occasionally the difference in media can make a true book-to-film translation impossible.

The LotR series was perhaps the most faithful.

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?

Ethan Frome, and anything by Mary Angelou. I had a "progressive" teacher that favored books by black women.

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?

None, really; it's the other way around.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: CliveStaples Ethan Frome, and anything by Mary Angelou. I had a "progressive" teacher that favored books by black women.

Hah! Ethan Frome was running a close 3rd behind the two I named. Tell me: if you remember the book at all, would you interpret it as being about Platonic love?

I've never read any of Maya Angelou's books. As a poet, I think she's done some interesting things, but I have no interest in reading her 6 autobiographies. I'm not sure that anyone in history has lived enough to fill 6 books with any kind of meaningful information; she's lived an interesting life, to be sure, but not a 6-book life.

Quote by: CliveStaples None, really; it's the other way around.

Wouldn't you consider your own example, Dante, as having had some influence on society? Apart from being the model of what became the Italian language, the Inferno has shaped people's ideas of Hell ever since he wrote it.

[Chaossaber314]

1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?

Hmmm... I usually find I have the strongest feelings for the character I don't like so I guess I'll go with Holden Caulfield from Catcher in the Rye. Always hated that character.

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?

Not really big on poetry.

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?

I prefer it being one man because it's easier than calling a group of people overrated. :p

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?

No, just hard to read because of the dialect.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature? I think if the author is still alive, it's modern literature. If we still read it after the writer is dead, it gets to be a classic.

You pretty much summed up my thoughts on this one.

6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)

I don't think there is a dividing line. A Brave New World or 1984 for example.

7. What makes a good book?

Well developed characters and relevant plot. They always said the Scarlet Letter would have made a great short story.

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?

Sure, as long as they're considered separate entities. I enjoyed the Jurassic Park movie and the Book and had no qualms about how very different they were. If you don't expect a movie to be a faithful representation of several hundred pages of writting, you're not dissapointed.

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?

I might get executed for this since I always manage to find one hard-core fan whenever I'm spouting off about it, but The Great Gatsby. I couldn't finish it. Though ironically I did better on the quizes and finally the test when I used Sparknotes than I ever did when I was actually reading it.

It was like "Woe is us. We're rich and we're not happy with our lives."

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?

Not much.

At this point my brother would go off on a tangent about how books are obsolete. I don't agree, but with much of the world even less intelligent than him, it's becoming that way.

[grandpa]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?

Maybe Pip from "Great Expectations." That is a tough one to answer.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?

Something by Sylvia Plath, probably.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?

No.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 7. What makes a good book?

Another tough one. A good book is usually descriptive of events, but not too descriptive. It should show, rather than just tell. Also, intelligence doesn't hurt.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?

A. Not all of them, obviously.
B. "Fear and Loathing In Las Vegas." It is not as good as the book, but it is so damn close that complaint barely holds.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?

"Women in love" by DH Lawrence. The class just gave up on the book, and I thought it was a good decision.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?

Probably not enough.

Grandpa h.

[dsanthony]

1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?
Many. Marlow from Joseph Conrad. Malone from Beckett. Arthur from Le Morte de Arthur. Richard II from Shakespeare.

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?
Out of the Blue

The bolt of lightning crashed into the tree
and stuck
leaves exploded into nuggets of popcorn
covering the ground.
He awoke to find the blue-white shaft
protruding from the tree
like a flourescent erection.
Wading through the knee-deep drifts of white
he plugged his computer into the base of the tree
and typed his name at the top of the page.

(poem by me)

Otherwise, I like Yeats, Wallace Stevens, David Ignatow and Richard Brautigan.

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?
Uninteresting question. Yes.

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?
No.

5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature?
Most people do not understand the term modern. There are many periods of literature. Modern literature is a distinct period from around the turn of the 20th century through the 40s and 50s. It includes Hemingway, Faulkner, Beckett, Williams, Eliot. Personally, I think the first modern novel was "The Heart of Darkness".. which I also think was the most important novel written in the last 200 years.

6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)
Genre fiction typically follows specific patterns of development. Genre fiction can transcend the category and become literature. Example: The already mentioned "Heart of Darkness" was seen by many as a simple adventure/sea tale when it was published. Also Shirley Jackson's "The Haunting of Hill House."

7. What makes a good book?

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?
Best movie? The movie which was most true to the book was "An Accidental Tourist."

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?
can't remember

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?
At one time, a great deal. Jerry Springer and Britney Spears are the icons of our culture.

[underbear1]

1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?
I'm quite found of Madam DeFarge from a Tale of Two Cities

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?
"No poems now
just bruises"
by Gavin Dillard

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?
yes

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?
No, it spoke about race as Twain knew it.

5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature?
A classic would have to last a minimum of 30 years, and still be read.

6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)
I think it's just a convenience to sub catagorize books by subject matter, sometimes you feel like a mystery, sometimes fantasy/sci fi.

7. What makes a good book?
Great characters, and a well defined world for them to interact.

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?
Many books should, because when they work, it adds to both the book and film. There are too many I enjoy to name a best, Anna and the King, Auntie Mame, The Miracle Worker, Diary of Anne Franks, Rosemary's Baby, etc.

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?
Fly Fishing in America, but generally the way schools tested what you read in assigned books, nearly killed any desire for reading for pleasure. I loathed both Great Expectations and a Tale of Two Cities in Jr. High School, but now I read them with pleasure.

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?
not sure

[Ghumanto]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I've never read any of Maya Angelou's books. As a poet, I think she's done some interesting things, but I have no interest in reading her 6 autobiographies. I'm not sure that anyone in history has lived enough to fill 6 books with any kind of meaningful information; she's lived an interesting life, to be sure, but not a 6-book life.

I read most of the 6 . The 1st one ( I know why the caged bird sings ) is truly great. The 2nd one is OK. But later on the books became so boring !

Autobiography - I suggest you to read Maxim Gorky's life. It's truly captivating.

[CliveStaples]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Hah! Ethan Frome was running a close 3rd behind the two I named. Tell me: if you remember the book at all, would you interpret it as being about Platonic love?

Mostly I think it's about the futility of romantic love. And life in general.

I've never read any of Maya Angelou's books. As a poet, I think she's done some interesting things, but I have no interest in reading her 6 autobiographies. I'm not sure that anyone in history has lived enough to fill 6 books with any kind of meaningful information; she's lived an interesting life, to be sure, but not a 6-book life.

Meh. She's only interesting because she's a poet with black skin, not because she's a good poet.

Wouldn't you consider your own example, Dante, as havig had some influence on society? Apart from being the model of what became the Italian language, the Inferno has shaped people's ideas of Hell ever since he wrote it.

Certain outstanding examples can change peoples' minds and shape a society--but that's true of any genre or medium.

[CliveStaples]

Maya Angelou is just a trendy author/poet. Her stories aren't anything new, and they aren't particularly compelling (unless you're a fan of works saturated with a curious mixture of self-importance and self-pity).

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: CliveStaples Mostly I think it's about the futility of romantic love. And life in general.

Yeah, that's what I think, too. I asked because this was the moment when my Sophomore English class realized that we knew more about the book, in this particular instance at least, than our teacher, who said that the book was about Platonic love.

Quote by: CliveStaples Meh. She's only interesting because she's a poet with black skin, not because she's a good poet.

What makes someone a good poet, and why isn't Angelou?

Quote by: CliveStaples Certain outstanding examples can change peoples' minds and shape a society--but that's true of any genre or medium.

You don't think literature has a little bit more power than most, simply due to its history and the breadth and depth of scope?

[The Second Law]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint 1. Who is your favorite literary character, and why?

I always did like Heathcliff, of Wuthering Heights. His servitude, unrequited love, and incredible revenge always warmed my heart.

2. What is your favorite poem, and/or a sample of a poem from your favorite poet?

Favorite poet? Eh, I'm not big on poetry. Shel Silverstein is probably the poet I've read most, haha. Favorite poem, though, is probably The Guy in the Glass. It's got rhyme, rhythm, and a simple message. That, and the fact that it's been in my bathroom since I could remember made me memorize and thus like it.

3. Were the works of Shakespeare actually the writing of a single man?

Yeah.

4. Is Huckleberry Finn a racist novel?

It's been ages since I read it, but I'm pretty sure it's not.

5. What do you think is the dividing line between "classics" and modern literature? 6. What is the dividing line between literary texts and genre fiction (horror, romance, sci-fi, etc.)

Literature is NOT my thing, for the most part, so I don't even want to try here....

7. What makes a good book?

Entertainment value, not message or deep-rooted symolism or literary tactics. Those add to the "impressive-value" of the work, not to its measure of how good it is.

8. Should books be made into movies? What's the best movie from a book you have seen?

Not only do some books translate into movies really well, but few things promote sales of a book better than the release of a high-profile movie about the book.

9. What was the worst book you were forced to read in school?

Chaos, I love you. The Great Gatsby induces dry heaves from me. I cannot express with words or actions how much I hate that trash.

10. How much influence does literature have on society, morals, life, etc.?

Uhhh.... I'd have to say very little.

--Second

[CoffeeSaint]

All right, that's two of you now that consider The Great Gatsby to be vomit-inducing garbage; I won't say it's my favorite book, but I didn't think it was that bad. Why do you hate it so much? Chaossaber, you said it seems to be saying, "Woe is us. We're rich and we're not happy with our lives." What's wrong with that as a message? Is sorrow or suffering the province of the lower classes? Does money solve enough problems that the only things left for rich people are pathetic in comparison?
The rich people in the book are miserable, but not because of their wealth. Daisy and Tom have crappy lives because they're shallow and arrogant, Jordan Baker is dishonest, and Gatsby is misguided in thinking he can recapture his idealized past, which never actually existed as he remembers it -- and is gone, in any case. What's wrong with those as morals?

Or does even the thought of discussing this make you dry heave?

[dsanthony]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint All right, that's two of you now that consider The Great Gatsby to be vomit-inducing garbage; I won't say it's my favorite book, but I didn't think it was that bad. Why do you hate it so much? Chaossaber, you said it seems to be saying, "Woe is us. We're rich and we're not happy with our lives." What's wrong with that as a message? Is sorrow or suffering the province of the lower classes? Does money solve enough problems that the only things left for rich people are pathetic in comparison? The rich people in the book are miserable, but not because of their wealth. Daisy and Tom have crappy lives because they're shallow and arrogant, Jordan Baker is dishonest, and Gatsby is misguided in thinking he can recapture his idealized past, which never actually existed as he remembers it -- and is gone, in any case. What's wrong with those as morals? Or does even the thought of discussing this make you dry heave?

Gatsby and co. were products of the "jazz age", which was a largely vaccuous era. It was not wealth but hedonism that drove the novel.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: dsanthony Gatsby and co. were products of the "jazz age", which was a largely vaccuous era. It was not wealth but hedonism that drove the novel.

Jordan Baker is a product of the Jazz Age, and Daisy as well, to some extent. Gatsby hates parties, and has no idea what to do with his money; his life concerns his idealized memories, not fun. How is he a hedonist? Tom, while he has affairs, is more of a throwback to Victorian-era ideals; he is a classic example of the virgin/whore complex in his views of women. If he was a hedonist, he wouldn't mind Daisy's affair with Gatsby -- would he? Am I misunderstanding hedonism, and/or the point you were making?

[dsanthony]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Quote by: dsanthony Gatsby and co. were products of the "jazz age", which was a largely vaccuous era. It was not wealth but hedonism that drove the novel. Jordan Baker is a product of the Jazz Age, and Daisy as well, to some extent. Gatsby hates parties, and has no idea what to do with his money; his life concerns his idealized memories, not fun. How is he a hedonist? Tom, while he has affairs, is more of a throwback to Victorian-era ideals; he is a classic example of the virgin/whore complex in his views of women. If he was a hedonist, he wouldn't mind Daisy's affair with Gatsby -- would he? Am I misunderstanding hedonism, and/or the point you were making?

Well, I haven't read it in a long time, so I can't quote chapter and verse. Fitzgerald was himself a fixture in the party scene of the jazz age, along with his wife (when she was able). The novel is not a simplisti morality tale with a single message about hedonism. But from what I remember it was not a condemnation of "wealth" per se, but of a particular lifestyle.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint All right, that's two of you now that consider The Great Gatsby to be vomit-inducing garbage; I won't say it's my favorite book, but I didn't think it was that bad. Why do you hate it so much? Chaossaber, you said it seems to be saying, "Woe is us. We're rich and we're not happy with our lives." What's wrong with that as a message? Is sorrow or suffering the province of the lower classes? Does money solve enough problems that the only things left for rich people are pathetic in comparison? The rich people in the book are miserable, but not because of their wealth. Daisy and Tom have crappy lives because they're shallow and arrogant, Jordan Baker is dishonest, and Gatsby is misguided in thinking he can recapture his idealized past, which never actually existed as he remembers it -- and is gone, in any case. What's wrong with those as morals?

I just can't take reading about people who have their whole lives handed to them who are upset with how they're living said lives despite the fact that it's entirely up to them. Most of us don't have that luxury. We make do with what we have. Some of us have to worry about finances and we don't go around bitching about it. Granted many of the characters did not do this, but they are expressed through the author which is in and of itself a form of expression of the characters.

Their problems with society were the result of their own actions. The rest of us don't have a choice of where we are (for the most part). They choose to live in an area decided by wealth. If you don't like it, move. Just because you're not living with rich people doesn't mean your money goes away.

If you make wealth and money a big deal, it will be a big deal.

Sure there can be a bigger point to all of it, but if it gets lost in bland plot and irritating characters it really doesn't matter that much.

[underbear1]

Gatsby was as much about class and old money as it was about wealth. It's not high on my interest level but I have no objection to discussing it.

[CoffeeSaint]

It's mostly about social class and old money; this is why Gatsby's dream is doomed from the start, because his wealth doesn't fix his problems: his problem is that he was born poor, and he got his money illegally (bootlegging and stock market scams). It's a condemnation, in some ways, of the American Dream; Gatsby is a self-made man, but it doesn't actually get him anything but disappointed and dead.
ds, you are entirely right about Fitzgerald and the Jazz Age, and most of the book's descriptions and all of its dialogue are to do with that; Daisy's character definitely has some Jazz Age tastes and styles. And Chaos, I agree that it's hard to get to the point of a novel when you don't like the people in it -- that's why I never liked teaching A Separate Peace.
And, after all, it is a pretty bleak book; the only people who end up well are the scumbags, Tom and Daisy. But I have to give Fitzgerald some credit for some of the images he chose: when Gatsby says Daisy's voice sounds like money, and when Nick and Jordan meet the owl-eyed man in Gatsby's library, who is amazed that all of Gatsby's books are real - I think those are fantastic. But what the hell, I'm a lit geek anyway.