Lit discussion, anyone?

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint How is Of Mice and Men a cop out? You said it yourself: the problem was insurmountable. Lenny could not be saved, but at the same time, he can't really be blamed for what he did. What do you do with someone like that?

It just seems to me that the ending was the result of Steinbeck writing himself into a corner. Though it's not that dissimilar from the beginning with them running from close to the same situation. To me the killing seemed kinda random. It's passed-off that he's doing it to save him the pain, in some kind of pseudo-euthanisation but to me the ultimate show of a friendship would have been for George to have sacrificed himself allowing Lenny to escape. You can figure that because of Lenny's intelligence that he would eventually end up caught but the heroism in that act would be the allowance of hope or a chance at escape and life as opposed to ending it.

Personally, I think George is a hero; I would not be wiling to kill someone to save them pain unless it was someone that meant the world to me: my mother or father, or my wife. That's it. Never for a friend -- and that tells me something about my friendships compared to Lenny and George.

I'm not against Euthanasia but I really don't see this as an example of that.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 It just seems to me that the ending was the result of Steinbeck writing himself into a corner. Though it's not that dissimilar from the beginning with them running from close to the same situation. To me the killing seemed kinda random. It's passed-off that he's doing it to save him the pain, in some kind of pseudo-euthanisation but to me the ultimate show of a friendship would have been for George to have sacrificed himself allowing Lenny to escape. You can figure that because of Lenny's intelligence that he would eventually end up caught but the heroism in that act would be the allowance of hope or a chance at escape and life as opposed to ending it. I'm not against Euthanasia but I really don't see this as an example of that.

There is a lynch mob coming after them; they come upon the scene moments after George pulls the trigger. Lenny has run to the river and then sat down to wait for George; what are the chances he could escape? More importantly, what are the chances he won't make the same mistake again, even if he does escape? This is what Lenny does: he screws up and gets in trouble. There's not really any hope for him. If he is caught, he will fight back; he will have to be beaten into submission, and then he will be hung, slowly and painfully considering who's doing the hanging. He will also feel betrayed because George couldn't save him.
So if saving someone from pain, fear, and a slow, agonizing death isn't euthanasia, what is?
If hope is going to be inevitably shattered, why is that hope a positive thing? George lets Lenny die thinking he will be happy; isn't that keeping hope alive as long as it possibly can be?

And I doubt Steinbeck ever wrote himself into a corner. At least not in something he completed and published.:)

[Chaossaber314]

There is a lynch mob coming after them; they come upon the scene moments after George pulls the trigger. Lenny has run to the river and then sat down to wait for George; what are the chances he could escape? More importantly, what are the chances he won't make the same mistake again, even if he does escape? This is what Lenny does: he screws up and gets in trouble. There's not really any hope for him.

I disagree. I don't think it's an inevitability. It's very likely but not for certain.

If he is caught, he will fight back; he will have to be beaten into submission, and then he will be hung, slowly and painfully considering who's doing the hanging. He will also feel betrayed because George couldn't save him.

Who says George can't save him? He's armed just like everyone else and he has the element of surprise seeing as they're not expecting to run into a pissed off George ready to throw his life on the line for his friend.

When you throw guns into the equation it really doesn't matter how short you are.

[CoffeeSaint]

Do we have to get back into the gun discussion?

So George should start an OK Corral style shootout in order to save Lenny. Why? Lenny is a murderer. An unintentional murderer, yes, but still a killer. Does friendship always trump morality? Should George kill innocent men, who are only trying to bring a killer to justice, in order to protect Lenny so Lenny can kill again? What about Curly's wife? Did she deserve to die? Should Lenny walk away fromthat unscathed? I also find it hard to believe that George can fight everybody off; the best-case scenario is that the mob that was after Lenny right then would leave and go for the sheriff; George and Lenny could run, but surely they'd bring dogs, etc. How well could Lenny deal with being hunted?

Lenny can't get away, realistically. That being the case, which is better: dying quickly, painlessly, with a smile on his face and his friend beside him, or living through a trial he wouldn't understand, and then being placed in prison? Can you imagine Lenny dealing with prison?

[Chaossaber314]

So George should start an OK Corral style shootout in order to save Lenny. Why? Lenny is a murderer. An unintentional murderer, yes, but still a killer. Does friendship always trump morality?

You said it yourself that you thought he wasn't really responsible.

Should George kill innocent men, who are only trying to bring a killer to justice, in order to protect Lenny so Lenny can kill again?

By definition, a lynch mob isn't innocent nor just.

What about Curly's wife? Did she deserve to die?

No but Lenny isn't capable of understanding what happened.

I also find it hard to believe that George can fight everybody off; the best-case scenario is that the mob that was after Lenny right then would leave and go for the sheriff;

It's a risk, but with the element of surprise it doesn't really matter. He'd probably die in the process but he'd die protecting his friend. Not killing to save him which I find to be non-sense honestly. If he was doing it to get justice or because he felt he should be the one to stop Lenny before he hurt someone else out of some feeling of responsibility for the situation, that would be different. Personally I sensed something darker in George in this instance. Like he had been baby-sitting Lenny for so long that he finally saw his quick way out.

George and Lenny could run, but surely they'd bring dogs, etc.

What makes you think they didn't before?

How well could Lenny deal with being hunted?

He didn't do so badly before. In fact he would be better suited to fit in in another town than anyone since he lacks any real idea of what's happened so it would really be starting over for him.

Can you imagine Lenny dealing with prison?

Lenny would probably do great in prison. He's fine with manual labor, He's strong enough to defend himself, and he'd be guaranteed 3 meals a day which is more than most people could say in the depression.