Lit discussion, anyone?

[Jack]

I agree that it's hard to get to the point of a novel when you don't like the people in it -- that's why I never liked teaching A Separate Peace.

I'm so glad to hear another voice such opinions. I've always felt slightly guilty for not reading or re-reading "great" novels that are depressing, that have characters I don't give a hoot about and a plot I would gladly spare myself the effort of trying to follow. While I can acknowledge the superiority of the prose over its contemporaries, and would agree that it should be considered one of the classics of modern literature, I just don't care. The plot and characters depress me and/or bore me to tears. Why in the world would I willingly subject myself to the pain of trying to enter into that world?
(Note: I don't have any specific novel in mind, that's just my general attitude toward great works that aren't great to me.)

[CoffeeSaint]

So, does anyone have a novel with a character they do like they want to bring up/discuss?

Was there a reason that most of the favorite literary characters mentioned here have been from "classic" literature? Was it the way the question was framed, or are the classics the works that have the strongest/most interesting characters?

My all-time favorite book is Fahrenheit 451, by Ray Bradbury, and part of the reason is I like all of the characters. Montag is a great realistic everyman, his wife Millie is perfectly vacuous, Captain Beatty is a remarkable villain, and Faber and Granger are my favorite kinds of characters -- ones who have a lot of preaching to do.

[lsbskins1]

The Once and Future King - what a great freakin' book. I love King Pellinore because he is so wonderfully real and absurd, all at the same time. Thank you, Ms. Johnson, for introducing me to such a gem in Junior Year English (AP British Lit).

[CliveStaples]

1984 by George Orwell. Great political work--not so sure about its merits on a strictly literary basis, but an influential and important novel nonetheless.

[Jack]

The book I found the most exciting when I first read it, and still remains one of my favorite tomes, is The Outsider by Colin Wilson. It reaffirmed my perceptions of my own character. I found myself nodding my head in enlightenment constantly.

[Osborn F Enready]

I love literature, and would like to partake in the discussion, but I myself do not know where the line is that delineates literature from any other work of fiction.

Any working definitions, so I know what I have read that is "literature" and what is not?

[The Second Law]

Regarding The Great Gatsby, Isherwood made most of my points already. To me, the book was all about how some people's lives suck. That's it. They're miserable and they don't do anything to improve their situations. I don't care what your underlying themes, messages, and symbolisms are when merely reading the book makes me irate and sick (and yes, CS, just thinking about why I don't like the book is turning me green). This is also why I rate Welcome to the Dollhouse and The Weatherman as two of the worst movies ever possibly made.
---------------
As for a good book, my favorite, in fact, Gone with the Wind just blew me away. Scarlett is a character that you love to both love and hate. I never really like powerful women figures in literature, but I absolutely loved Scarlett, mainly because of her tenacity and determination. Even though she is a powerful woman and is willing to stand up for what she wants, that image is also mitigated at the same time when you realize that she's standing this strong and being like she is just because she can't conquer her own feelings for Ashley; she's turned into a helpless bird when it comes to forgetting him.

I dunno, but I love that book and would be very willing to discuss anything about it.

--Second

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I love literature, and would like to partake in the discussion, but I myself do not know where the line is that delineates literature from any other work of fiction. Any working definitions, so I know what I have read that is "literature" and what is not?

There's no such thing as a clear dividing line between literature and fiction. The easiest answer would probably be, if some influential critic somewhere defines it as literature, it is. There has traditionally been a distinction between so-called "genre" fiction and literary fiction; genre fiction is a novel that can be labeled as anything other than "fiction," including detective, horror, thriller, science fiction, fantasy, and romance. However, as plenty of people have pointed out on this thread, there are examples of every kind of genre fiction that have become literature with time and/or popularity: 1984 is science fiction, Gone With the Wind is romance, Le Morte d'Arthur and the other Arthur tales are all fantasy, by modern standards (Wizards, magic swords, etc.).
For this discussion, let's just say this: bring up any book you want to talk about. If people give you crap about it, that was the wrong book to mention. Otherwise, go nuts.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: The Second Law Regarding The Great Gatsby, Isherwood made most of my points already. To me, the book was all about how some people's lives suck. That's it. They're miserable and they don't do anything to improve their situations. I don't care what your underlying themes, messages, and symbolisms are when merely reading the book makes me irate and sick (and yes, CS, just thinking about why I don't like the book is turning me green). This is also why I rate Welcome to the Dollhouse and The Weatherman as two of the worst movies ever possibly made. --------------- As for a good book, my favorite, in fact, Gone with the Wind just blew me away. Scarlett is a character that you love to both love and hate. I never really like powerful women figures in literature, but I absolutely loved Scarlett, mainly because of her tenacity and determination. Even though she is a powerful woman and is willing to stand up for what she wants, that image is also mitigated at the same time when you realize that she's standing this strong and being like she is just because she can't conquer her own feelings for Ashley; she's turned into a helpless bird when it comes to forgetting him. I dunno, but I love that book and would be very willing to discuss anything about it. --Second

Scarlett O'Hara is possibly the most obnoxious character in the history of literature; but because of that, when she changes halfway through the book and becomes a strong woman, we love her all the more. For me, though, her most important role in the book was to make me like Rhett Butler more. She gives him a soul, and passion, and I hate her because I like him. And Ashley just makes me want to do a Great Gatsby-style vomit all over the pages.
She could conquer her feelings for Ashley; she barely has any feelings for Ashley. It's her feelings for herself she can't conquer. She loves the image of herself as the jilted lover, the one true passion of Ashley's life that his honor prevents him from ever being with; it's crap, she knows it, but she won't admit it. She wants to be the martyr -- because martyrs don't have to be strong, they don't have to shoot people or maintain a household after their parents die. She's a perfect example of the mindset that leads to those "call-for-help" suicide attempts; she'll do anything to be helpless and taken care of, and that's what she gets out of her impossible but undying love for Ashley. Makes for a great theme in a novel, but in real life? She'd need a serious dope-slap.

[Osborn F Enready]

Coffee said: There's no such thing as a clear dividing line between literature and fiction. The easiest answer would probably be, if some influential critic somewhere defines it as literature, it is. There has traditionally been a distinction between so-called "genre" fiction and literary fiction; genre fiction is a novel that can be labeled as anything other than "fiction," including detective, horror, thriller, science fiction, fantasy, and romance. However, as plenty of people have pointed out on this thread, there are examples of every kind of genre fiction that have become literature with time and/or popularity: 1984 is science fiction, Gone With the Wind is romance, Le Morte d'Arthur and the other Arthur tales are all fantasy, by modern standards (Wizards, magic swords, etc.). For this discussion, let's just say this: bring up any book you want to talk about. If people give you crap about it, that was the wrong book to mention. Otherwise, go nuts.

I say:
Thank you for the reply, and the great explanation.

In that spirit,

Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" is so far, my favorite ever piece of literature. (still reading it.)
I have never experienced such a laborious read that was still so enjoyable, descriptive, and creatively written. I am having trouble putting it down.

"A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs Court" I found enjoyable.

"Call of the Wild", one I found very impressionable at a young age, when I read it.

"Of Mice and Men" was a great work, or so I thought, at the age I read it.

"All Quiet on the Western Front", excellent work.

"1984" of course, one of the best in my opinion.

"Catcher in the Rye", read young, but appreciated it.

"To Kill a Mockingbird" Great work.

"One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest", one of the best conversions to film I have ever seen from a work of this type.

Unfortunately, I have allowed most of my reading time to be consumed by more factual works as of the last 6 years, due to our current government situation. I enjoy both fiction and factual, but often prefer factual. Ayn Rand has awakened a new intrest in literature for me however, so I plan on expanding my literature universe when I finish it.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: Thank you for the reply, and the great explanation. In that spirit, Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" is so far, my favorite ever piece of literature. (still reading it.) I have never experienced such a laborious read that was still so enjoyable, descriptive, and creatively written. I am having trouble putting it down.

Wait -- a Libertarian that likes Ayn Rand? How extraordinary . . .

Quote by: Osborn F Enready "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs Court" I found enjoyable. "Call of the Wild", one I found very impressionable at a young age, when I read it. "Of Mice and Men" was a great work, or so I thought, at the age I read it.

I liked "Of Mice and Men" best out of these three, though it has been many years since I read "Yankee."
You know, there are plenty of more recent authors who have written similar kinds of things, about time travel, animal lives, and the sacrifices of friendship. That's why I say I like the Steinbeck best, because I've read several time travel books I liked better, and many animal books I liked better -- but it's hard to find a pair like Lenny and George.
I'd recommend "Tailchaser's Song," if you like cats, "Watership Down" if you can stand the idea of reading a book about bunnies, and "The Bear Went Over The Mountain" just for fun. And for something like the Twain -- though definitely not humorous -- you have to read Stephen King's Dark Tower series. I think you'd really like the Gunslinger, Osborn; he's become one of my examples of what it means to be an honorable man. There are also some great elements concerning different people in different worlds; in the second book, The Drawing of the Three, Roland (the gunslinger) leaves his postapocalyptic world and comes to ours; his descriptions of how soft and coddled we are are priceless.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready "All Quiet on the Western Front", excellent work.

The best war book I know is "Johnny Got His Gun." Incredible.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready "1984" of course, one of the best in my opinion.

Yes and no, IMO. Orwell was an incredible predictor and social critic; not a whole lot of a writer, in terms of telling a good story. William Gibson tells a much better story, and his predictions are fairly accurate, at least so far; Neal Stephenson is another I'd recommend. They both write cyberpunk.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready "Catcher in the Rye", read young, but appreciated it. "To Kill a Mockingbird" Great work.

Oh, TKAM is much better than Catcher, though the descriptions of Holden's relationship to his family are incredibly moving. But I teach Mockingbird in school, which means that all of the fun has been completely sucked out of it for me.

You ever read "I Am the Cheese?" Or "The Giver?"

Quote by: Osborn F Enready "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest", one of the best conversions to film I have ever seen from a work of this type.

Word.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Unfortunately, I have allowed most of my reading time to be consumed by more factual works as of the last 6 years, due to our current government situation. I enjoy both fiction and factual, but often prefer factual. Ayn Rand has awakened a new intrest in literature for me however, so I plan on expanding my literature universe when I finish it.

Hey, anything that gets people reading is a wonderful thing, or rather, anything that gets people reading new and different things. I actually went so far as to read The Republic a few months ago, and that got me into reading Ralph Emerson's essays, which have been as eye-opening for me as Rand sounds to be for you. Not that I can read more than one at a time, but I'll slog through it eventually.

[Osborn F Enready]

Coffee said: Wait -- a Libertarian that likes Ayn Rand? How extraordinary . . .

I say:
LOL. I think the reason I like it so much is because of her ability to describe the logic being used in the book from different perspectives, or mostly accurate from "others shoes".

I only found the Libertarian party, the idea of objectivism and individualism, in the last few years. It is an amazing thing, or at least I think it is, when you spend your life working out your own "ideals or philosophy" and then out of the blue you stumble on a book, or group that has described in words, decades before your birth, your entire value system and "lens" with which you view reality with an adequate "lens" from other perspectives being discussed in comparison.

I think Rands book from what I have read (550 of the 1164 pages) is the most complete breakdown of the "competing" philosophies from most of the relevant positions, and outlooks.

I simply can't reccommend that one enough, especially if you cross apply it to todays world, government, and collective population of the earth as it stands now.

Coffee said: I liked "Of Mice and Men" best out of these three, though it has been many years since I read "Yankee." You know, there are plenty of more recent authors who have written similar kinds of things, about time travel, animal lives, and the sacrifices of friendship. That's why I say I like the Steinbeck best, because I've read several time travel books I liked better, and many animal books I liked better -- but it's hard to find a pair like Lenny and George.

I say:
Hit the nail on the head. Lenny and George nearly live and breathe through the paper with which they are written, as I think all people can find these qualities in any man to some degree and gain perspective from their idealogical positions.

Coffee said: I'd recommend "Tailchaser's Song," if you like cats, "Watership Down" if you can stand the idea of reading a book about bunnies, and "The Bear Went Over The Mountain" just for fun. And for something like the Twain -- though definitely not humorous -- you have to read Stephen King's Dark Tower series. I think you'd really like the Gunslinger, Osborn; he's become one of my examples of what it means to be an honorable man. There are also some great elements concerning different people in different worlds; in the second book, The Drawing of the Three, Roland (the gunslinger) leaves his postapocalyptic world and comes to ours; his descriptions of how soft and coddled we are are priceless.

I say:
Thanks for the reccomendations, and though Stephen King is not my style of author, I will check out the "Dark Tower" works next time the opprotunity presents itself.

Coffee said: The best war book I know is "Johnny Got His Gun." Incredible.

I say:
I have read so many, probably 300+ books on war, from fact to fiction.

My favorite book ever, on the "true" warrior, is "First Blood". The original story of John Rambo is one of the best books, stories and plots(combined with writing execution) I have ever read. Truly, and I can't say enough, one of my absolute favorites.

For example, two movies that in their transition from book to movie lost very little thanks to excellent direction, and highlighting of human emotion.... First Blood with Sylvester Stallone (his best role, and acting ever, in my opinion.) and Death Hunt, with Charles Bronson. Both characters seem to be ruthless and "almost without feeling" since they are the silent, brooding type, however, in both movies the directors brought to light the emotion that the author evoked in the book using character description, by using close-ups of the actors in critical scenes, the absolute pain in every decision to use force, though in their minds it was fully justified, it was still against others just like themselves and that pain showed through their faces, eyes and purpose behind what they stood for. The directors did a great job, on doing something usually difficult in movies, which is giving emotional depth to a mostly non-speaking character.

Coffee said: Oh, TKAM is much better than Catcher, though the descriptions of Holden's relationship to his family are incredibly moving. But I teach Mockingbird in school, which means that all of the fun has been completely sucked out of it for me.

I say:
I agree on Holden, and I understand about the fun. Kind of like being a car mechanic 9 hours a day will suck the fun out of working on ones own cars.

Coffee said: You ever read "I Am the Cheese?" Or "The Giver?"

I say:
No, neither.

Coffee said: Hey, anything that gets people reading is a wonderful thing, or rather, anything that gets people reading new and different things. I actually went so far as to read The Republic a few months ago, and that got me into reading Ralph Emerson's essays, which have been as eye-opening for me as Rand sounds to be for you. Not that I can read more than one at a time, but I'll slog through it eventually.

I say:
Word

[The Second Law]

I was so weirded out by I Am the Cheese.

--Second

[Chaossaber314]

I liked Of Mice and Men up until the end which I felt was a cop out. The writer creates a seemingly unsermountable problem and then gives up themselves trying to solve it.

I almost forgot about To Kill a Mockingbird.
Atticus' closing argument toward the end of the book still gives me chills.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

I liked Of Mice and Men. It gave us a picture of two (at first) seemingly mouse and man, but then it throws the clincher of whos really the mouse and who is really the man.

[Ghumanto]

I see nobody is really discussing about the works of non English writers. Don't you read Jean Paul Sartre / madam Bouvair ?
Gabriel Garcia marquez ? The great new African writers ( Chinua Achebe ...) ?

Is Ray Bradbury is more than a good story teller ? Can he sit in line with Marquez ?

I know very little of literature and so I'm raising these questions.

My all time favourite remains the good old books of Hemingway / Jack London / Faulkner ....Paul Eluar ..Frost... endless name of writers/poets

Have anybody ever read the works of Rabindranath Tagore ? He's simply great.

[dsanthony]

Quote by: Plasma Snake[D] I liked Of Mice and Men. It gave us a picture of two (at first) seemingly mouse and man, but then it throws the clincher of whos really the mouse and who is really the man.

Steinbeck's works are a great micrcosm of the politics of the 30s and 40s. Compare the absurd idealization of the working class in "The Grapes of Wrath" with the more realistic portrayal of them in "of mice and men".

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: The Second Law I was so weirded out by I Am the Cheese. --Second

That's because it was frickin' weird.

I liked that it explored the whole unreliable narrator theme, like "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." When you read that, you can't be sure which parts are really happening and which parts Chief Bromden is making up -- which makes you wonder if you can ever know what's really happening in a novel, or even in life. IT's a wonderful philosophical exercise, IMO, and I like that I Am the Cheese did it in a YA/easy to understand format, at least as easy as the idea ever is to understand. Besides, the title is thoroughly cool, in a freaky, chills-down-the-spine kind of way.

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I liked Of Mice and Men up until the end which I felt was a cop out. The writer creates a seemingly unsermountable problem and then gives up themselves trying to solve it. I almost forgot about To Kill a Mockingbird. Atticus' closing argument toward the end of the book still gives me chills.

How is Of Mice and Men a cop out? You said it yourself: the problem was insurmountable. Lenny could not be saved, but at the same time, he can't really be blamed for what he did. What do you do with someone like that? What would you do to save your best friend from pain Would you be willing to feel guilt for killing him, as George will? I think it's an interesting thought. Personally, I think George is a hero; I would not be wiling to kill someone to save them pain unless it was someone that meant the world to me: my mother or father, or my wife. That's it. Never for a friend -- and that tells me something about my friendships compared to Lenny and George.

And Atticus's speech is one of the finest things written on justice and society. Gives me chills, too.

Quote by: Plasma Snake I liked Of Mice and Men. It gave us a picture of two (at first) seemingly mouse and man, but then it throws the clincher of whos really the mouse and who is really the man.

And the best part is the implied reference to the line from Robert Burns: "The best-laid plans of mice and men gang aft agley." So not only do you have the question of who is stronger, Lenny or George, but you have the thought: is there ever any hope that they will get their farm? Is there any hope that any of us will get our farm? If so, how? IF not, why not?

Good stuff.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Ghumanto I see nobody is really discussing about the works of non English writers. Don't you read Jean Paul Sartre / madam Bouvair ? Gabriel Garcia marquez ? The great new African writers ( Chinua Achebe ...) ?

Sartre? Nope. Is that de Beauvoir? Then nope. Marquez is on my shelf, as is Chinua Achebe's "Things Fall Apart," but I haven't gotten to them yet. I have a lot of books on my shelf. :)
I'm not a big reader of world literature, but then, I'm not a big reader of any fine/classic/great literature since college. I read fantasy and science fiction, primarily. And in college I studied American Lit, because I planned to be a high school teacher, which I am.

I did love Cervantes's Don Quixote, and several of the Japanese and Chinese authors that I read in college -- Haruki Murakami is the name that springs to mind, and the novel "Farewell My Concubine" was incredibly moving, but I read that ten years ago and can't remember the author.

Quote by: Ghumanto Is Ray Bradbury is more than a good story teller ? Can he sit in line with Marquez ? I know very little of literature and so I'm raising these questions.

I don't know much about literature myself; there are just too many books in the world for one person to read. I've read Bradbury, I haven't read Marquez, so I dunno.

Quote by: Ghumanto My all time favourite remains the good old books of Hemingway / Jack London / Faulkner ....Paul Eluar ..Frost... endless name of writers/poets

All Americans (except I don't recognize Paul Eluar?). I've never been a big fan of Hemingway, mainly because I don't share his style of writing and I'm not a fan of modernist/existentialist thought. I did love The Old Man and the Sea. Jack London was a better writer, IMO, but the things of his I've read haven't had a whole lot to say, just good adventure. I hate William Faulkner with a passion, but that's a personal prejudice. I do love Robert Frost's work.

Quote by: Ghumanto Have anybody ever read the works of Rabindranath Tagore ? He's simply great.

Not me.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: dsanthony Steinbeck's works are a great micrcosm of the politics of the 30s and 40s. Compare the absurd idealization of the working class in "The Grapes of Wrath" with the more realistic portrayal of them in "of mice and men".

Let's see: Tom Joad is a murderer, Noah Joad abandons the family, as does Rose of Sharon's husband. Grampa is an ornery old coot, Pa is pretty hopeless in his attempts to control a family through the power of his manhood, Ma is stuck in the past in her desperate attempts to "Keep the family together" no matter what, even when that is no longer possible or even a good idea. The two youngest Joads turn into savages by the end of the book.
Where's the idealism there?

Steinbeck was describing a situation in which people were being destroyed, in every possible way; he naturally felt sorry for them. He doesn't imply that the working class is the greatest thing in the world, simply that they are the focus of the novel, and they are humans worthy of consideration. He idealizes the working class in Cannery Row, through Mack and the boys, and especially in In Dubious Battle, when the labor organizers might as well have INRI written above their heads. I don't think he does it so much in Grapes.