Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Scribbler1 · Jun 18, 2006, 01:21 am

Quote:

Quote by: Captain Chaos

But, the claim that murder=wrong is unprovable. We say it is wrong because of our instincts.

WE say it is wrong. That is all you need to know right there. WHY we say this is irrelevant to the topic you started.

Quote:

I believe you start with murder=wrong as one of your premises. But if you stop to look inside yourself, and ask why it is wrong, you will find yourself saying things like "it just is" - "I just feel it is bad" - things like that.

Don't presume to tell me what I will "find myself saying". Murder is wrong to me because it is unproductive and infringes on the rights of another. I have already stated why it is unproductive. You won't find too many jungle cats concerned for the rights of the individual. You should know rights are a big deal around here and stupid arguments aren't.

Quote:

No one can prove the rightness or wrongness of abortion, because they cannot prove the truth of their starting premises.

I thought this was about infanticide. Still fishing for a way to bring abortion into this, eh? Put your rod away pal, cuz it looks like they ain't biting.

I've said what I wanted to say regarding this.

Captain Chaos · Jun 18, 2006, 10:09 am

Quote:

I thought this was about infanticide. Still fishing for a way to bring abortion into this, eh? Put your rod away pal, cuz it looks like they ain't biting.

In my opening post, I aimed this thread towards people who are prochoice - so clearly I created this thread in a way that links both topics. And look, if no one bites, then the topic will die away on its own.

I think I should start a new thread about how the rightness or wrongness of abortion is unprovable. I think that would serve my purposes better.

Captain Chaos · Jun 18, 2006, 10:12 am

Quote:

WE say it is wrong. That is all you need to know right there. WHY we say this is irrelevant to the topic you started.

It is not irrelevant. What is wrong with infanticide: simply stating that it is wrong because it is a subset of murder is a simplistic answer. WHY is the point of my post. And look, if you don't like it, just don't participate - no need to get bent out of shape.

Scribbler1 · Jun 18, 2006, 10:44 am

I HAVE been participating if you haven't noticed, and I have answered your questions. If the answers are not what you wanted I can't help that. Call it what you want but the majority of people see outright murder as unacceptable. I have explained my feelings are not based on instinct, but simple practicality and recognition of a person's right to live. You want to get someone in an argument about killing BABIES specifically, which in my opinion is a poorly hidden way to start another boring abortion thread.

Again, Murder is unacceptable and infanticide is murder, so babies are INCLUDED in our revulsion to murder. Murder is an act, regardless of who it is committed against so your insistence on focusing on infants is irrelevant. It is NOT simplistic, murder is wrong for the reasons I have stated. You are obviously looking for a specific answer and apparently you aren't getting it. That's your problem not mine. The question was if you don't approve of murder why not infant murder. It is STILL murder. The question was like if you don't like blue, what's wrong with DARK blue? It is STILL blue.
Unless you expect pro-murder advocates to pop up, which is obviously not what you wanted, was it?

Captain Chaos · Jun 18, 2006, 10:55 am

Thank you for participating - I really do appreciate it.

Quote:

I have explained my feelings are not based on instinct, but simple practicality and recognition of a person's right to live.

OK, so why do you care for practicality? Why do you recognize a person's right to live?

Quote:

Unless you expect pro-murder advocates to pop up, which is obviously not what you wanted, was it?

Well, what I wanted was to get folks from a prochoice standpoint to explain why they feel that infanticide is wrong.

I see no reason to stop at the surface answer. It is more fruitful to trace that chain of reasoning back as far as possible - to keep asking a regressing series of 'WHYs' until we get to the heart of the matter.

I linked this issue to abortion in the opening post - so yes, it is definitely another boring abortion thread. However, I agree that I should have opened more directly - so I started a different thread about how the rightness or wrongness of abortion rights in unprovable.

I think this is an important point, because it helps soften some of the antagonism between the two camps.

Zee-Axis · Jun 27, 2006, 12:37 am

To "Kill" is to terminate a life for any reason, plants and animals alike.
"Murder" is unwarranted killing. It cannot be condoned if human societies are to succeed.

This statement is true: "Not all killing is murder".

Talk amongst yourselves...

Protostar · Jun 27, 2006, 09:15 am

I think infanticide is wrong because the infant has done nothing to you, and therefore killing it is illogical. I think it is furthermore looked down upon, as an infant does not have the ability to defend itself from attack, so you are basically killing a helpless entity. There are valid reasons to do this though. Back during slavery, black women would kill their children because they deemed it better for them to die than to live the life of a slave. I can understand and sympathize with such reasoning.

Captain Chaos · Jun 27, 2006, 09:50 am

Quote:

I think it is furthermore looked down upon, as an infant does not have the ability to defend itself from attack, so you are basically killing a helpless entity.

The point of this thread was not to defend infanticide.

I created it to provide an example of how all moral beliefs can ultimately be traced back to instincts, especially moral beliefs regarding abortion.

Apeman81 · Jun 27, 2006, 01:46 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

So pretty much everyone will consider infanticide murder, right? In that case the question is why is murder wrong? And you seriously expect honest and thoughtful answers to such a dumb question?

Good luck with that.

One step further. How is killing a baby after it has completed the birth process different from killing the same baby when it has been partially birthed (still in the birth process)?

Strange Dreamer · Jun 28, 2006, 10:26 pm

In reply to the original question, but possibly applicable to murder in general.

Infanticide destroys any chance that a new human life has of developing and interacting with the world. I considder such destruction the ultimate betrayal of life itself. A child has no history, and their potential is generally unmapped. Therefore, to take away that opportunity for a chance at life for what usually amounts to frivilous reasons is inexcusable.

McAiden · Jul 6, 2006, 08:59 pm

This is sick and childish. Haven't run into anything so stupid on this forum yet.

Scribbler1 · Jul 6, 2006, 10:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: McAiden

This is sick and childish. Haven't run into anything so stupid on this forum yet.

Stick around, you're new yet.

Jun 18, 2006, 10:44 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	I HAVE been participating if you haven't noticed, and I have answered your questions. If the answers are not what you wanted I can't help that. Call it what you want but the majority of people see outright murder as unacceptable. I have explained my feelings are not based on instinct, but simple practicality and recognition of a person's right to live. You want to get someone in an argument about killing BABIES specifically, which in my opinion is a poorly hidden way to start another boring abortion thread. Again, Murder is unacceptable and infanticide is murder, so babies are INCLUDED in our revulsion to murder. Murder is an act, regardless of who it is committed against so your insistence on focusing on infants is irrelevant. It is NOT simplistic, murder is wrong for the reasons I have stated. You are obviously looking for a specific answer and apparently you aren't getting it. That's your problem not mine. The question was if you don't approve of murder why not infant murder. It is STILL murder. The question was like if you don't like blue, what's wrong with DARK blue? It is STILL blue. Unless you expect pro-murder advocates to pop up, which is obviously not what you wanted, was it? Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

Jun 27, 2006, 09:15 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
Protostar Hardcore Capitalist Location: North Carolina Posts: 759	I think infanticide is wrong because the infant has done nothing to you, and therefore killing it is illogical. I think it is furthermore looked down upon, as an infant does not have the ability to defend itself from attack, so you are basically killing a helpless entity. There are valid reasons to do this though. Back during slavery, black women would kill their children because they deemed it better for them to die than to live the life of a slave. I can understand and sympathize with such reasoning. "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." . . . Susan B. Anthony

Jun 27, 2006, 12:37 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
Zee-Axis Molten Ash Posts: 97	To "Kill" is to terminate a life for any reason, plants and animals alike. "Murder" is unwarranted killing. It cannot be condoned if human societies are to succeed. This statement is true: "Not all killing is murder". Talk amongst yourselves...

Jun 28, 2006, 10:26 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
Strange Dreamer Crazy Poet Location: In a different world Posts: 43	In reply to the original question, but possibly applicable to murder in general. Infanticide destroys any chance that a new human life has of developing and interacting with the world. I considder such destruction the ultimate betrayal of life itself. A child has no history, and their potential is generally unmapped. Therefore, to take away that opportunity for a chance at life for what usually amounts to frivilous reasons is inexcusable.

Jul 6, 2006, 08:59 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
McAiden Igneous Magma Location: In the hot state Posts: 191	This is sick and childish. Haven't run into anything so stupid on this forum yet.