god moves in mysterious ways

[jose]

Passenger train derails in Israel

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5071142.stm




A passenger train has derailed in Israel, killing at least five people and injuring more than 60
about the same count as the beach massacre.
Media reports quoted investigation sources as saying the driver was thought to have been working for 30 hours straight and, as a result, may have fallen asleep at the wheel.
seems like a ¨work accident¨

[Matt W]

Misleading headline, jose. And sick, too. Moved to Misc, we'll get back to you on whether you're warned....:rolleyes:

[Ghumanto]

Jose I'm really shcoked at this headline and the post!
God can't ( or at least shouldn't ) kill innocents for any reasons !
Offcourse the massacre on the beach is a henious act - I feel the pain too! But why God has to punish others for some killers in Israel goverment ?

[Jack]

I understand your point, jose. Of course I have no opinion on the "divine retribution" angle of these incidents. But I will say that I think it makes clear how similar those two camps are. Neither side is even trying to be perceived as the good guy. Neither side gives a rat's ass about world opinion. Yet neither side has the balls to totally annihilate the other, something either could do fairly easily. Perhaps it's because after 2000+ of wars and relocations they've finally come to understand every state needs an enemy. You use the enemy, and real or contrived fear of the enemy, as a tool to keep the people in line. Without an enemy, the populace gets fat and lazy.

[shrike]

Offcourse the massacre on the beach is a henious act - I feel the pain too! But why God has to punish others for some killers in Israel goverment ?

There is no proof that it was Israeli shell.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Ghumanto Jose I'm really shcoked at this headline and the post! God can't ( or at least shouldn't ) kill innocents for any reasons ! Offcourse the massacre on the beach is a henious act - I feel the pain too! But why God has to punish others for some killers in Israel goverment ?

Why not? Did you think it was a coincidence that the first born child of every Egyptian died when Ramses II refused to free Moses' people?

[jose]

Quote by: shrike There is no proof that it was Israeli shell.

The Israeli army said it attacked northern Gaza Strip areas that Palestinian militants use to fire homemade rockets at Israel. But one artillery strike appeared to go dramatically off course.

The shells struck a crowd at a beachside picnic, killing six and wounding more than 30, Palestinian Health Minister Bassem Naim said. A woman and two children younger than 2 were among the dead, medical officials said. All the dead were believed to be related.

The barrage destroyed a tent and scattered body parts along the beach.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...8I4QCMG0.shtml
Facing international condemnation for Friday's killings, Israel scrambled today to contain the diplomatic fallout.

After the United States urged Israel to "consider the consequences of its actions," the army said it had suspended artillery bombardment of northern Gaza while an investigation into the incident continued.

Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz contacted Abbas Saturday to express regret for the deaths.

Mr Peretz "regretted the death of innocent victims and assured Abbas that Israel will make all possible efforts to prevent the repeat of such an incident in the future,"
http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/c...55E401,00.html

maybe there should be an independent inquiry

[shrike]

But one artillery strike appeared to go dramatically off course

Says who?

Peretz: IDF not involved in Gaza beach blast In press conference, defense minister and IDF chief of staff present findings of inquiry commission into Friday's deadly blast which killed a Palestinian family ; 'facts prove it was not caused by Israeli forces,' Peretz states Attila Somfalvi In a press conference held Tuesday evening in the Defense Ministry in Tel Aviv, Defense Minister Amir Peretz and IDF Chief of Staff Lieutenant General Dan Halutz declared that according to findings they obtained, the Palestinian family killed on the Gaza beach on Friday was not hurt by an Israeli shell. Gaza Blast Peretz opened the press conference by expressing his regret over Tuesday's incident, in which eight Palestinian civilians were killed during an Israel Air Force strike on a terror cell. At the same time, anti-fence protestors were demonstrating outside the Defense Ministry in protest of the Gaza operation. Five of them were arrested. The commission of inquiry is headed by Major-General Meir Kalifi, head of the IDF Training and Doctrine department. Kalifi said during the press conference: "We can say that all the shells hit their targets. We have an exact documentation of every shell. We know where it hit. The second thing we checked is whether it is possible there was a shell dud. We checked our fire in the past months and there were no duds. Therefore, I can rule out with certainty that the hit was caused by IDF fire. In light of the findings, I cannot say what did hit them." "This is something we are still working on, looking into this issue, and I hope we will be able to reach founded estimations, if not about the fire, than about what hit them," he added. Kalifi gave further details about the incident: "We can say that it took place 150 meters (about 492 feet) north of what we call 'the casino' (a structure near Bet Lahia). This took place on the basis of intelligence analysis, witness statements we received from Palestinians themselves. A general analysis of films, in both foreign agencies and in Israel, and footage documenting the Israeli attacks that day. We believe that the time of the incident was between 16:57 and 17:10." He added that the IDF photographed the beach during the hours and on the basis of those images, it could be seen when the tragic incident took place, according to the gathering of people in the area. "Due to the close proximity of the hospital from which the ambulances set out, we concluded that the incident did not take place before 16:57. We examined all of the incidents of firing carried out by the IDF in the previous 24 hours. The closest Air Force attack took place two and a half kilometers from the area at 15:17. The last two attacks took place hours before," he said. Referring to the Gaza beach blast, Peretz said: "We have enough findings confirming our big suspicion that the attempt to portray the incident as an Israeli incident is not true. I know this is very difficult to explain, but the facts accumulating prove that this was not caused by an Israeli incident." "This is a very important fact for the Israeli ethics and for the army's validity. The accumulating facts prove that the incident was not cause due to an operation of Israeli forces," he said. Halutz: We express our deep regret The chief of staff said: "In the past few weeks, western Negev residents have been hit by a rocket barrage, and we are working to minimize it. On Saturday evening I said that we express our regret for hurting a Palestinian family. Today I see that the regret is still valid, but we are not responsible. There is difficulty to deliver all the details and explain all the explanations and convince all those who are not convinced, but I am convinced regarding the details." Peretz also referred to Tuesday's events in Gaza: "I was to express my regret over the fact that today, during an incident in which our forces were operating against an attempt to prepare for launching Grad Missiles at Israel, innocent civilians who were not involved in the incident were also hurt." "In all the operations the IDF carries out, one of the issues taken into account, which sometimes leads to taking greater risks, is the need not to hurt innocent civilians. However, all the operations are carried out with maximal protection of civilians. All the organizations which operated against us are operating from populated areas, knowing that they are risking the population," he added. Halutz also referred to Tuesday's incident, in which eight civilians were killed in an IAF strike in Gaza. "Also this incident happened in light of the reality in which it happens. Grad missiles can cover other areas in the western and northern Negev, and we are very firm over preventing these missiles from being launched. Therefore, what was carried out was carried out," he said. "We express our deep regret for hurting those who were not meant to be hurt. However, I remind you that they are operating in crowded populated places, and we will not let the groups we detect carry out their plans. The Palestinians pay this price. The Palestinian Authority and others have to do everything to prevent such incidents," he added.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...262611,00.html

maybe there should be an independent inquiry

maybe,But everyone was fast to accuse Israel based on speculation

[Ghumanto]

Quote by: shrike Says who? http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...262611,00.html maybe,But everyone was fast to accuse Israel based on speculation

I was watching BBC last night. The reporter was showing the press breifing of the IDF boss and then the actual scene on the beach. He finished with the following ( I'm writing from memory so it's a bit different than BBC's version ) -
The shell came from Israel ( because of the shell 150mm , the direction ) - a famous ballastic specialist confirmed the same.
The IDF acknowledged that they fired shells on that day but refused to accept the incident as their deed.

Wonder who else can fire those shells if IDF didn't ?? Certainly the Hamas doesn't have those fire power and Nobody is talking about any 3rd party ( Egypt / Jordan / Syria).

[shrike]

Wonder who else can fire those shells if IDF didn't ?? Certainly the Hamas doesn't have those fire power and Nobody is talking about any 3rd party ( Egypt / Jordan / Syria).

It wasnt a shell it was probably some kind of mine that palestinians planted in case israelis will invade from the sea.

[PatrickHenry]

In shrike's Israel the IDF never kills innocents. :rolleyes:

[shrike]

In shrike's Israel the IDF never kills innocents

Ofcourse it is but never intentionally.Targeting civilians is war crime.

[PatrickHenry]

Of course, a nation as righteous as Israel would never involve itself in a war crime... :rolleyes:

[shrike]

There was a case a few years ago with a wounded, bloody kid pictured with a policeman wielding a club behind him, which immediately made "Israeli policeman abuses palestinian kid" headlines. Turned out a few days later that the cop was the kid's father, who was hurt by the palestinians, but no one really cared at that point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvia_Grossman

The Israeli army fucks up hard so metimes, but when it does, it acknowledges it. Plenty of people have died as collaterals in attacks on terrorists and rocket launchers in recent years. However, it has never intentionally targetted civilians. Certainly not with missiles or mortar shells. Claiming otherwise is absurd.
Unfortunately, as with the case of the Mohammad al-Dura, the damage has already been done. Even if the findings are conclusively in favor of Israel, the images of the little boy, and now, the little girl who lost her family, are too strong and overwhelming to counter with facts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Durrah

[jose]

Israel has dismissed continuing calls for an independent international inquiry into the beachfront explosion which killed seven members of a Palestinian family in Gaza last Friday after its own internal military investigation decided it was not responsible for the blast.
the official interpretation was strongly challenged by a former Pentagon battle damage expert who has surveyed the scene of the beach explosion. He said yesterday that "all the evidence points" to a 155mm Israeli land-based artillery shell as its cause.

Marc Garlasco, who worked in war zones including Iraq and Kosovo during his seven-year stint in the US Department of Defence, called for an independent investigation into the killings after concluding that shell fragments and shrapnel from the site, the size and distribution of the craters on the beach, and the type of injuries sustained by the victims made Israeli shelling easily the likeliest cause.
Mr Garlasco said that most of the serious injuries of the victims in the Gaza hospitals that he had visited were to the torsos and heads, which were inconsistent with a land mine or of a bomb embedded in the sand. "If this had been a landmine I would have expected to see serious leg injuries," he said. Mr Garlasco said that while he could not rule out the theoretical possibility that Palestinian militants had rigged up an unexploded 155mm shell to make an explosive device of their own, that too would have normally produced many more severe leg injuries.

Mr Garlasco produced a four to five-inch, mainly blackened shell fragment which he collected about 100 yards from the scene of the explosion and in which the figures 55 and the letters "mm" are clearly discernible.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle994070.ece

[shrike]

Here what jsoe omitted
Mr Garlasco produced a four to five-inch, mainly blackened shell fragment which he collected about 100 yards from the scene of the explosion and in which the figures 55 and the letters "mm" are clearly discernible.acknowledging that this was not itself definite proof that the shell had killed the Palestinians he said some fragments and shrapnel which the Palestinian police explosives department say they took from the scene where the victims were killed were definitely from a 155mm shell

[jose]

Mr Garlasco said that copper-lined shrapnel taken from two injured girls who had been in a car at the time of the blast and from the car itself were consistent with such a shell fired by a M109 howitzer.

If the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Palestinians, but if the Israelis put theirs down, there would be no more Israeli killing of civilians

[shrike]

...

[shrike]

If the Palestinians put down their weapons tomorrow, there would be no more Palestinians, but if the Israelis put theirs down, there would be no more Israeli killing of civilians

Do you have something smart to say except strawmans .Are you debating or just posting news snips we have google news for that are you competing with them?

[jose]

[quote=shrike] There was a case a few years ago with a wounded, bloody kid pictured with a policeman wielding a club behind him, which immediately made "Israeli policeman abuses palestinian kid" headlines. Turned out a few days later that the cop was the kid's father, who was hurt by the palestinians, but no one really cared at that point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvia_Grossman
more lies the father was back in the USA
read the link