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Poetic_Justice · Apr 17, 2004, 02:11 pm

Why is faith opposed irrationally and insufficiently? because they hate the idea that their minds must be challenged. You see, reasoning scares people. There is a very simple reason to why logic and reason scares people, it is because to use them, one must already assume God's existence, without that assumption, one must make hundreds of presuppositions to make a single logical point, which is rather disconcerting. Indeed though, faith scares people, and since faith is the fountain from which reason springs forth, it makes good sense that reason to would scare people.

Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates all met that small-mindedness. All three studied the ideas of polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, monotheism, and atheism, in their conclusions they all criticized every approach but monotheism. Independently they criticized the other approaches as illogical and without reason. They were particularly critical of atheism, but mainly because they were accused of atheism for not being polytheists. In truth they found it no more illogical than polytheism, but that was still illogical enough.

So what exactly is it that people are afraid of?

Faith=
"The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11

Faith is an interesting phenomenon, like many other words it has multiple mewanings. However, I wish to dispense with the pop culture meanings and set forward an empirical, and Biblical, idea of what faith is.

To find out what faith is, first I will show what it is not. Faith is not emotion. Emotion is fallible, emotion can be tricked, emotion changes. Meanwhile faith as I am defining it is a matter of true knowledge. If we can truly know something by faith, faith cannot be emotion. Emotion could perhaps strengthen faith, even help faith somewhat. But faith is not emotion. This I can also show because many people who seem uncharacteristically unemotional can still have large amounts of 'faith'. So faith is not connected intrinsically to emotion, although emotion helps it in some circumstances.

My next point is that faith is not reasoning or logic. It is not a faculty of the mind's reasoning capacity, partly because it incites the mind's reasoning faculty. Reasoning, like emotion, can strengthen faith but faith is not a product of it. Rather, reasoning is a product of faith, if anything.

You ask why I say that reasoning is a product of faith? Well it is rather simple. The science of reason rests on a few principles, one, that we are equipped to reason, two, that logic exists, three, that logic is unchanging, four that we CAN know anything. I beleive that those four show the basic presuppositions that we make when reasoning. Now the Skeptic school of thought realized that we NEED presuppositions to reason, and that inevitably when we try to prove presuppositions we end up in circular reasoning. Their response was to question everything and say that we do not know anything, we do not even know that we exist. I beleive this is obviously self-refuting because if you can't know anything, then how do you know you can't know anything? Basically, the Skeptics' self-refuting claim would make this universe illogical. However, the universe is extremely logical, providing you allow for presuppositions. That would make no sense since that which is illogical could not possibly produce logic. Therefore the Skeptics were wrong, and presuppositions must be valid.

So how do we know these presuppositions? This is where faith comes in. Only faith can possibly give us knowledge, since all our other faculties are unreliable. Faith is then defined as the faculty of our being which shows us knowledge and presuppositions to the universe which allow us to reason. Rev. Cornelius Van Til made the claim that faith indeed does show us the basic presupposition to the universe, and he said that this presupposition was that "God is". Van Til then by reasoning showed how all other knowledge can be proven from that basic presupposition, including knowledge of our own existence. Unlike Descartes' "I think therefore I am" statement, which is inherently regressive and circular, Van Til made no qualms and was extremely truthful in saying he was making a presupposition. But unlike other great thinkers, he traced a true beginning to reason, and all existence seems to validate his arguments, while even the arguments of Descartes and Aristotle just don't seem to have that same logical coherence.

In conclusion, faith is our faculty of presupposition, without which we have no reasonable basis for understanding and bringing logic to our observations of the universe. It is not a matter of emotion or reason, although both strengthen it. It perhaps bears most resemblance to our sensory perceptions, but even there it is not quite the same, since those are easly deluded and are not a basis for knowledge alone. Faith is also the spring from which proper reasoning can come forth. As Van Til said, even those who seek to try to use reason to disprove his most basic presupposition, must first presuppose it in order to reason.

Impenitent · Apr 17, 2004, 02:16 pm

faith is not truth and not rational...

Apr 17, 2004, 02:16 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	faith is not truth and not rational... "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Apr 17, 2004, 02:11 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	Why is faith opposed irrationally and insufficiently? because they hate the idea that their minds must be challenged. You see, reasoning scares people. There is a very simple reason to why logic and reason scares people, it is because to use them, one must already assume God's existence, without that assumption, one must make hundreds of presuppositions to make a single logical point, which is rather disconcerting. Indeed though, faith scares people, and since faith is the fountain from which reason springs forth, it makes good sense that reason to would scare people. Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates all met that small-mindedness. All three studied the ideas of polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, monotheism, and atheism, in their conclusions they all criticized every approach but monotheism. Independently they criticized the other approaches as illogical and without reason. They were particularly critical of atheism, but mainly because they were accused of atheism for not being polytheists. In truth they found it no more illogical than polytheism, but that was still illogical enough. So what exactly is it that people are afraid of? Faith= "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11 Faith is an interesting phenomenon, like many other words it has multiple mewanings. However, I wish to dispense with the pop culture meanings and set forward an empirical, and Biblical, idea of what faith is. To find out what faith is, first I will show what it is not. Faith is not emotion. Emotion is fallible, emotion can be tricked, emotion changes. Meanwhile faith as I am defining it is a matter of true knowledge. If we can truly know something by faith, faith cannot be emotion. Emotion could perhaps strengthen faith, even help faith somewhat. But faith is not emotion. This I can also show because many people who seem uncharacteristically unemotional can still have large amounts of 'faith'. So faith is not connected intrinsically to emotion, although emotion helps it in some circumstances. My next point is that faith is not reasoning or logic. It is not a faculty of the mind's reasoning capacity, partly because it incites the mind's reasoning faculty. Reasoning, like emotion, can strengthen faith but faith is not a product of it. Rather, reasoning is a product of faith, if anything. You ask why I say that reasoning is a product of faith? Well it is rather simple. The science of reason rests on a few principles, one, that we are equipped to reason, two, that logic exists, three, that logic is unchanging, four that we CAN know anything. I beleive that those four show the basic presuppositions that we make when reasoning. Now the Skeptic school of thought realized that we NEED presuppositions to reason, and that inevitably when we try to prove presuppositions we end up in circular reasoning. Their response was to question everything and say that we do not know anything, we do not even know that we exist. I beleive this is obviously self-refuting because if you can't know anything, then how do you know you can't know anything? Basically, the Skeptics' self-refuting claim would make this universe illogical. However, the universe is extremely logical, providing you allow for presuppositions. That would make no sense since that which is illogical could not possibly produce logic. Therefore the Skeptics were wrong, and presuppositions must be valid. So how do we know these presuppositions? This is where faith comes in. Only faith can possibly give us knowledge, since all our other faculties are unreliable. Faith is then defined as the faculty of our being which shows us knowledge and presuppositions to the universe which allow us to reason. Rev. Cornelius Van Til made the claim that faith indeed does show us the basic presupposition to the universe, and he said that this presupposition was that "God is". Van Til then by reasoning showed how all other knowledge can be proven from that basic presupposition, including knowledge of our own existence. Unlike Descartes' "I think therefore I am" statement, which is inherently regressive and circular, Van Til made no qualms and was extremely truthful in saying he was making a presupposition. But unlike other great thinkers, he traced a true beginning to reason, and all existence seems to validate his arguments, while even the arguments of Descartes and Aristotle just don't seem to have that same logical coherence. In conclusion, faith is our faculty of presupposition, without which we have no reasonable basis for understanding and bringing logic to our observations of the universe. It is not a matter of emotion or reason, although both strengthen it. It perhaps bears most resemblance to our sensory perceptions, but even there it is not quite the same, since those are easly deluded and are not a basis for knowledge alone. Faith is also the spring from which proper reasoning can come forth. As Van Til said, even those who seek to try to use reason to disprove his most basic presupposition, must first presuppose it in order to reason.