Crop Circles: Mystery or Hoax?

[Klio]

The energy required to even approach the speed of light approaches the INFINITE. IN short. IT CAN'T BE DONE. Sorry about that.

Then, there are those pesky tachyons that go faster than the speed of light, and cannot go slower. Guess they don't know it can't be done.

Then take into account that our solar system resides in a far off lonely arm of our galexy. Why come al that way, leave a message and leave?

All WHAT way? They're not necessarily extra-terrestrial. They could be extra-dimensional.

Crop circles ahve been PROVEN time and time again to be man made.

And time and time again, there have been circles found that have NOT been man-made (at least that could be proven). Actually, very few of the crop circles can be proven to have been man made.

Again, to believe that there are only either/or solutions to these mysteries displays, I think, a poverty of imagination.

[Nono]

I ask again: Unless you're actually sitting in an aircraft above a fantastically complex crop circle that -- you somehow know for sure -- wasn't there yesterday, how can you possibly be certain that any of the photos posted in this thread haven't been massively diddled with?

In other words, what do these photos prove?

I'm not making any judgement one way or another on the issue since I have the humility to realize I'm in no position to. I'm merely asking for a trifle more skepticism about the photographic 'evidence'.

Mostly in England, and mostly in Wiltshire, the 'capital of crop circles' in England.'

Kinda odd that one place would have so many more than others, ain't it?

[PatrickHenry]

I ask again: Unless you're actually sitting in an aircraft above a fantastically complex crop circle that -- you somehow know for sure -- wasn't there yesterday, how can you possibly be certain that any of the photos posted in this thread haven't been massively diddled with?

In other words, what do these photos prove?

Come on, Nono! I never saw the World Trade Center. Does that invalidate its prior existence?

Just because you are not physically looking at something does that mean it never existed? When the earth turns away from the sun on your part of the planet, has it winked out of existence until the next morning? Sheesh!

[Nono]

Jeez, Pat, you seem to be seized by a gigantic fit of strawmanism.

Obviously, if all we had to 'prove' the former existence of the WTC were photos, these days we could entertain legitimate doubts (doubts, mind). But naturally there is a whole range of other things, not least the memory of millions of people and a big hole in the ground.

Not so crop circles, from what I can gather from this thread. Only a bunch of digital photos, any one (or all) of which could have been doctored on somebody's PC.

How about answering my question? What do these photos prove?

[PatrickHenry]

Jeez, Pat, you seem to be seized by a gigantic fit of strawmanism.

Obviously, if all we had to 'prove' the former existence of the WTC were photos, these days we could entertain legitimate doubts (doubts, mind). But naturally there is a whole range of other things, not least the memory of millions of people and a big hole in the ground.

Not so crop circles, from what I can gather from this thread. Only a bunch of digital photos, any one (or all) of which could have been doctored on somebody's PC.

How about answering my question? What do these photos prove?

I was attempting an analogy...

Let me get this straight. Are you denying the existence of these artifacts?

[Nono]

You could have read my post. That would have been the conscientious thing to do. But no matter, I'll help you by quoting myself:

"I'm not making any judgement one way or another on the issue since I have the humility to realize I'm in no position to."

[Klio]

I ask again: Unless you're actually sitting in an aircraft above a fantastically complex crop circle that -- you somehow know for sure -- wasn't there yesterday, how can you possibly be certain that any of the photos posted in this thread haven't been massively diddled with?
In other words, what do these photos prove?

How do we know that ANY photos we're shown haven't been "diddled with" as you put it? How do we know the photos and live camera action we get from Iraq are real? How do we know there's even a war going on over there?
Maybe it's ALL illusion -- everything we see. There's actually some justification for that last statement.

The photos plus eyewitnesses (many, many) prove that there are patterns in certain fields (all over the world, BTW). A couple of guys in England came forward to say that they made some of the circles with a board and two ropes.

I just don't believe that some people with a board and a couple of ropes made some of the elaborate circles that have been seen. Even many people with many boards and ropes would have to work longer than a couple of hours in the dark of night with no lights could not have covered the territory and been responsible for the elaborateness of many of the circles.

Right now, I don't think anyone has an answer as to what causes them, but you'd have to show me people in total darkness making mathematically elaborate circles before I'd believe that it's all human-derived.

There are many things that we don't understand -- some wondrous and mysterious, and some that we DO understand that are just as wondrous and mysterious. We can't always find a "rational" explanation for everything. For instance, we still don't understand membrane theory and parallel universes, yet scientists have evidence for them. But before we dismiss all explanations, out of hand, let's explore them a little further.

[Nono]

How do we know that ANY photos we're shown haven't been "diddled with"?

Precisely. In the absence of corroborating evidence, one would be foolish to draw conclusions.

I think the crop circles thing is very interesting, especially given post-event analysis of the crops involved (see Pat's link much earlier in this thread).

So I'm not poopooing the issue itself. But (sorry) I ain't taking the photos at face value either.

[PatrickHenry]

I have seen one image that was doctored, and admitted by the one who posted it. I think I mentioned it earlier. But it seems that there are many sites that post these images, from various photographers. I don't think the various photographers are in a conspiracy to mess with our minds, do you?

[Nono]

Why gratuitously introduce the notion of "conspiracy"? That too smacks of strawmanism. People like to fool around with image-warping software (Dubbya reading book upside-down, ad nauseum). We have to take that into account.

[PatrickHenry]

Why gratuitously introduce the notion of "conspiracy"? That too smacks of strawmanism. People like to fool around with image-warping software (Dubbya reading book upside-down, ad nauseum). We have to take that into account.

But if the photos are consistent, then they would be legit, right?

Otherwise it would be a clandestine agreement by various photographers to fool the public...a conspiracy, right?

[Laurie]

how can you possibly be certain that any of the photos posted in this thread haven't been massively diddled with?

I'm in no way an expert on these things, but I would kinda think that that would be next to impossible to do, with the intricate designs

Kinda odd that one place would have so many more than others, ain't it?

Not at all... Wiltshire is the heart of MOD land. And these 'UFO's' (and I'm not saying one way or the other that they exist, or are responsible for crop circles) tend to be spotted more often around military zones than elsewhere, I believe.

I'm not saying that it is wrong to have doubts, or be skeptical, at least you seem to have an open mind on the subject to some degree... However, some people don't care what the evidence is for, or against, they just outright dismiss these things arbitrarily, and arrogantly.