Bone to pick with Osborn thread......

[fushigi]

To attempt a stab at self-criticism, it takes one to know one, I guess?

Anyway, I'd say I'm pretty flexible in my views.* I'm always open to hearing your rebuttals on France or any other topic. For instance, I was pleasantly surprised to find out France has such high productivity.

In any event, I'd say I'm much more flexible in my views than Os. But then again, he's a man of convictions, whereas I am not. In fact, I only have one conviction: 实事求是 (seek truth from facts.)**

*I won't arrogate myself the authority to start up a "Bone to pick with fushigi" thread, but feel free if you want to, Nono!

**Yep, you guessed it--a quote from none other than Mao Zedong.

[Clarence]

I'm taking this as more of an Ask Osborn thread

So I drove through toledo to detroit an shit is looking Rufff. any comments?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Clarence So I drove through toledo to detroit an shit is looking Rufff. any comments?

Nice huh?


This is what happens when you let outsourcing become a government regulated transaction.

Quote by: fushigi For example, China. Persisting in criticizing it as a job-stealing, human right-abusing, communist (that's the funniest part) state, without considering that the benefits of trade with China--with its billion customers--far outweighs any of the harms, is just plain fear-mongering IMO. Furthermore, not considering that it's only China's desire to trade that opens the country up (permitting future political development) is short-sighted in my view. If you really want to increase personal freedom in the world, there are 1.3 billion people here waiting for the liberating benefits sustained economic development brings.

OK, he should have said that China is being used as a tool by corporate America for the above mentioned purposes. ( I put a reply in your blog about "comparative advantage". )

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Heather Hey Os. No bone to pick exactly, just a general observation. You use quotes a lot. Do you have a big notebook of favorite quotes that you keep at your computer desk or something?

He should have offered up this site, as he uses it all the time.


The Architecture of Modern Political Power


I'll say this about that. The Architecture of Modern Political Power have a great quotations page, but if you see something that resonates with you, you should cut, and paste it into your Wordpad, or something, because it seems to evolve over time. Precious quotes have fallen off the list.

[brien]

Os, I have no bones to pick with you except I will quote Mark Twain in a sense that is a good thing when thinking of your on line persona and understanding you can't resist the temptation of the debate, so please keep in mind:

" To men, all things are possible but one--he cannot have a hole in the seat of his breeches and keep his fingers out of it. (Letter to W.D. Howells, June 27, 1878.

On fools:

"The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightening ain't distributed right."

Huck Finn said to Tom:

"Hain't we got all the fools in town on our side? and ain't that a big enough majority in any town?

"Let us be thankful for the fools. But for them the rest of us could not succeed."

On firearms:

Old unloaded firearms...are the most deadly and unerring things that have been created by man..... A youth who can't hit a cathedral at thirty yards with a Gatling gun in three quarters of an hour, can take up an old empty musket and bag his grandmother every time, at a hundred."

On knowledge:

"The less a man knows the bigger the noise he makes and the higher salary he commands."

On eloquence:

People can always talk well when they are talking what they feel. This is the secret of eloquence.

and one on smoking:

Now there are no arguments that can convince me that moderate smoking is deleterious to me. I cannot attach any weight to either the arguments or the evidence of those who know nothing about the matter persoanlly & so must theorize. Theorizing has no effect on me. I have smoked habitually for 26 of my 34 years & and I am the only healthy member our family has."

(Letter to Olivia Langdon 1-13-1870.)

Tom Sawyer said of smoking:

"This majestic vice..."

And finally, on critics:

The critics symbol should be the tumble bug: (s)he deposits his egg in sombody's elses dung, otherwise (s)he could not hatch it."

:)

[Osborn F Enready]

Gr8ful, you obviously haven't read much Rand.

Her logic is clear, and if you read closely her views about trade and free market capitalism, you would understand why your "assumptions" are wrong.

Rand said quite frankly she would rather war with China than trade. Why?
China imposes its regulation on the market for only its people, and is a direct oppressor to its people in the market of goods, services and information, as well as denying their individual rights to affect government. She claimed socialists and communists were really only working in the market to subvert the market to provide gains their own ideology and necessary "market" could NEVER provide. She was right.

As far as corporations go..... where would YOU be without them?
Where would TECHNOLOGY be without them?

The only problem with corporations, especially multi-nationals is that they aren't REQUIRED to play by the same rules as individuals in the market, or taxation department. Rand faulted this of the American government, claiming it had been perverted by protectionism, as it has.

You also fail to notice the effects of Rebloodlicans and Democrips (equally) in striving toward a world government, that does NOT have individual rights as its center.

[Osborn F Enready]

Clarence said: I'm taking this as more of an Ask Osborn thread So I drove through toledo to detroit an shit is looking Rufff. any comments?

Yes, shit is ROUGH. That is why I chuckled when Bishop said "get a job". This city is in economic and social turmoil, school systems failing, and overall, it sucks. Bad leadership, bad goals not dealing with realism in economics or the idea of economic incentive, so you know..... rough.

Thanks for asking though. Did you appreciate the air quality as you drove by our mecca of fuel production refineries that provides lovely chemical smells, and a haze that glows in the sunrise, sunset? (Sunoco, BP, etc) Was it overtaken by the blight of Detroit warehouse and factory district for most "scenic" moment?

LOL

[gr8fuldaniel]

Sorry for the delay, I have had a lot of homework.
I guess you deleted some name calling... I didnt want to get into that kind of debate with you. Thanks.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Gr8ful, you obviously haven't read much Rand.

I dont need to. She writes fantasy fiction. Right?
She is against compulsory taxation, but I am sure she would not want to wait for volunteers to bring her water in buckets because the city water system wasnt built by volunteers. Nor the streets. And the cops and judges. There is an infrastructure that is compulsory and we citizens have signed a contract (by virtue of not leaving) that we would pay compulsory taxes to pay for roads and cops and judges and such.

Her logic is clear, and if you read closely her views about trade and free market capitalism, you would understand why your "assumptions" are wrong.

By "Free" market, do you mean business shouldnt have to pay taxes to maintain the roads that get your products to market?

Rand said quite frankly she would rather war with China than trade. Why? China imposes its regulation on the market for only its people, and is a direct oppressor to its people in the market of goods, services and information, as well as denying their individual rights to affect government. She claimed socialists and communists were really only working in the market to subvert the market to provide gains their own ideology and necessary "market" could NEVER provide. She was right.

I believe in fair trade, not free trade. I dont think we should sell products in America that are produced by child slavery. That aside, I believe we should have a tariff system to level the playing field. We have been outsourcing jobs that could been done here. Ayn Rand lived in an industrial America.

As far as corporations go..... where would YOU be without them? Where would TECHNOLOGY be without them?

I have a problem with Walmart because they have the power to destroy. They dont pay a living wage. Their employees live in poverty. I am not against all corporations...just the ones who dont split up the money fairly.
I also have a problem with the global redistribution of wealth into a few hands. Pensions are ignored. Greed sets the price for gasoline people need to survive.

The only problem with corporations, especially multi-nationals is that they aren't REQUIRED to play by the same rules as individuals in the market, or taxation department. Rand faulted this of the American government, claiming it had been perverted by protectionism, as it has.

Thats not the only problem with corps. but, I agree with the rest of your statement

You also fail to notice the effects of Rebloodlicans and Democrips (equally) in striving toward a world government, that does NOT have individual rights as its center.

I dont think its equally. I believe a lot of them are pretty pissed off about wasting money in Iraq that could be put to good use here at home. I am aware the whole Iraq thing is about globalism. There are more Democrats in DC who are against the war, than there are Libertarians. Ride the wave.

[Osborn F Enready]

Gr8ful said: I dont need to. She writes fantasy fiction. Right?

No. Ayn Rand was a philosopher that also dabbled in fiction. Ayn Rand penned and hammered out the philosophy of Objectivism, which is not only globally recognized and acclaimed, but also the underlying operative in her fictional work.

And yes, if you are going to criticize her, you should at least know something about her, or the philosophy.

You cannot, and I refuse to accept, the wholsale marginalization of her philosophy into a small, neat label, ignoring the logic behind every salient and well argued point of her philosophy.

Ayn Rand [Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]

Gr8ful said: She is against compulsory taxation, but I am sure she would not want to wait for volunteers to bring her water in buckets because the city water system wasnt built by volunteers. Nor the streets. And the cops and judges. There is an infrastructure that is compulsory and we citizens have signed a contract (by virtue of not leaving) that we would pay compulsory taxes to pay for roads and cops and judges and such.

Once again, if you wish to debate objectivism, I would be more than happy to, but I will not wholesale or butcher the philosophy with subjectivist points of view and without salient point of what you take issue with.

Ayn Rand knew more about tyranny, descrimination and starting at the bottom than most people could even fathom of themselves.

Gr8ful said: By "Free" market, do you mean business shouldnt have to pay taxes to maintain the roads that get your products to market?

No dan, I mean exactly what a free market is, which is the liberty of ALL individuals who make up the market, to interact in the market without regulation or descrimination, and with full individual rights.

Gr8ful said: I believe in fair trade, not free trade. I dont think we should sell products in America that are produced by child slavery. That aside, I believe we should have a tariff system to level the playing field. We have been outsourcing jobs that could been done here. Ayn Rand lived in an industrial America.

Dan, I don't want to be insulting, but know matter how I say it it will seem that way.

In a free market, there is no such thing as a need for "fair trade" since every single indiviuals "rights" to interact in the market are equal.

You don't understand what a "free-market" truly is, nor do I think you understand why what we have right now is not in any way comparable to a free market.

A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sells are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation. A free market is dependent on the legal recognition and observation of individual rights.

Take the time to read some Rand for yourself, sincerely, and come back and tell me what you fault of her philosophy.

I can accept arguing her philosophy if you understand the concepts with which you argue against, but the "definition" you are using of free-trade and capitalism are not representative of what Rand defined, nor would her philosophy have permitted or "given sanction" to the system of supposed "free-trade" we have today, which is NOT free-trade, but a terrible attempt at a flawed concept of "fair-trade".

Reason Magazine - Ayn Rand at 100

The Appeal of Ayn Rand Reading Rand's philosophy can be an exhilarating, head-turning experience; it was for me when I first picked up her nonfiction manifesto For the New Intellectual at the age of 19, two years after coming to the United States from the Soviet Union. (Rand herself was an American immigrant from the Soviet Union, leaving her family behind to move here in 1926.) Rand's rejection of the moral code that condemns selfishness as the ultimate evil and holds up self-sacrifice as the ultimate good is a radical challenge to received wisdom, an invitation to a startlingly new way to see the world. While Rand was hardly the first philosopher to advocate an ethos of individualism, reason, and self-interest, no one formulated it as accessibly or persuasively as she did--or as passionately. In Rand's hands, the "virtue of selfishness" was not a dry, abstract rationalist construct with a bloodless "economic man" at its center. It became a bold, ardent vision of defiance, struggle, creative achievement, joy, and romantic love. That vibrancy, more than anything else, accounts for her extraordinary appeal. Politically, Rand wanted to provide liberal capitalism with a moral foundation, to take on the prevalent notion that communism was a noble if unworkable idea while the free market was a necessary evil best suited to flawed human nature. In this she succeeded brilliantly (even if the notion that socialism failed because it has never been properly tried is still alive and well among the intelligentsia). Her arguments against "compassionate" redistribution--and persecution--of wealth have lost none of their power in the decades after they were made. Yet there is a reason Objectivism remains, for most people, a way station on a journey to some wider outlook. Even Nathaniel Branden, who still espouses most Objectivist tenets, has been severely critical of Rand's judgmental and contemptuous attitude toward all emotions she deemed "irrational," her tendency to glorify emotional repression, and her lukewarm support even for voluntary, non-self-sacrificing mutual aid.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Unregulated business sounds really stupid to me. You know how much companies lie about their products now? It would be 100 times worse without false advertising laws. Weights and measures would be chaotic since you could print 5 lbs. on 4 lbs. of oranges. Regulations protect the people. There are regulations for how long you can make your drivers drive...Thats a damn good regulation.

Deregulation is totally bogus.

I dont have time to read for a few weeks. But I have listened to the spokesman for the Ayn Rand Institute often. He calls in to the Thom Hartmann Show just about every Thursday (Noon ET) (sometimes on Wednesday)

[Osborn F Enready]

Dan said: Unregulated business sounds really stupid to me. You know how much companies lie about their products now? It would be 100 times worse without false advertising laws.

What didn't you understand about ONLY enforcing the rights of individuals who interact in the market? Do you know information fraud is a violation of your rights if proven intentional? We have fake "news" now for Christs sake, how is regulation helping?

Dan said: Weights and measures would be chaotic since you could print 5 lbs. on 4 lbs. of oranges. Regulations protect the people.

Yes, they do, as long as they are limited to protecting the rights of the individuals. False advertising is a criminal act, and still would be in a truly free market, so you are totally wrong in your assumptions.

Dan said: There are regulations for how long you can make your drivers drive...Thats a damn good regulation.

No, its not. I have been a professional driver and it does not get enforced unless accidents happen, in most cases. People know their own limitations, and are responsible for their own abilties and limitations.

Dan said: Deregulation is totally bogus.

Obviously if you don't know what I am talking about, I can't really debate you. You have to at least try to understand Dan, or nothing will be here to debate.

Dan said: I dont have time to read for a few weeks. But I have listened to the spokesman for the Ayn Rand Institute often. He calls in to the Thom Hartmann Show just about every Thursday (Noon ET) (sometimes on Wednesday)

The Ayn Rand institute is fragmented. Ayn Rands writings are not. I would strongly encourage you to put in some effort reading her works and not getting some recylced babble through a paid spokesman if you truly want to understand the logic and philosophy of Objectivism.