Space and Time

[Fonceai]

Sometimes discussions about God more to the wonders of astronomy and celestial mechanics.

Everything from gravity, space, time, to photons is so amazing that you wonder if there is a divine hand in all of it.

But instead of this being about God, this is about the astronomy; discussion about the neat stuff about curved space, black holes, event horizons, Absolute Zero, the temperature of the Big Bang, and what temperature it would have to be to for all matter in Fonceai's body to render down from matter into component energy.

To start, Kuroko theorized that instead of gravity affecting photons, instead the curve of space (cause by gravity) can be so steep that light is "stuck" travelling in it.

I disagree, but this is a great start for the discussion.

---

Notice that I didn't put this in a debate section because I want it to be relaxed, more casual, more friendly, and FUN!! So have fun now, dammit!

[rcne]

Gravity or gravitons are the only things no perfectly bound to our brane existence. The physical world we know is based on the traveling of photons and probably doesn't represent the workings of our three dimension + time cosmos.

The 'other dimensions' of string theory need to be tested and the competing quantum loop gravity needs to be reconciled by our photon induced mathematical reasoning.

The "short" of it is that what we see and experience is not all that exists.

[The Second Law]

We won't be testing string theory any time soon, considering you'd need a particle accelerator the size of the universe to do so. For now (and possibly forever), it's not science because it can't be tested.

@Fonceai: That's not so much Kuroko's thought as it is the thought of the vast majority of the scientific community.

--Second

[Fonceai]

I know. But he said it first and I wanted to carry this over to a new thread where we wouldn't be in violation.

I'd like him to explain it further so I can understand what he means. I'm very curious.

[Kuroko]

Well, my theory is very much centered arround gravity more or less scrunching up space-time.

See the distance travelled by a black hole for instance lets say it is one light year every 30,000 years which equals out to about 36000 KPH.. meh it sounds a lot but the earth travels three times as fast.

In any case, using this standard. While the space traveled by the black hole itself is measured in space time at 36,000 kph the mass of the black hole does not conform to this measurement. It's diametre is screwed due to the fact that if one were to measure an object in correlation to it's existance in space time (or how much it distorts) a black hole would still be the approximate size of the mass one would expect it to be were it not powerful enough to "shrink" mass.

So to say, the diametre of a blackhole in correlation to space time would be quite large, however it simply bends space time into itself, this is going off several well known theories, from Einstien to Newton to Schwarzschild.
I believe string theory even stands some ground here.

Any way, the distance covered by the object changes. This is due to the differences in masses to the respective space-time's for instance.

The collapsed black hole travels at 36,000 kph in uncurved space-time however it's mass as it screws and curves space time within itself would enable that travelling speed to be a multiplies factor of the amount of space time it scewed.

Light in my model still escapes a black hole, the speed of light never changes as the photons wavelength never needed to change, it simply had more time in a short distance to cover and did it in the same speed it normally would. Thus black holes aren't entirely black they just obsorb and release light at different times in relation to our space and time.

[rcne]

Thus black holes aren't entirely black Thus black holes aren't entirely black they just obsorb and release light at different times in relation to our space and timein relation to our space and time

Now if this sentence were changed to ....they just obsorb and release light at different rates (due to the extreme curvature) in relation to our space and time it would be even better, but this is an interesting perspective nonetheless.

Portions of string theory may be experimentally tested when CERN comes on line. Anyone here attending Colloquium: Revolution in Cosmology in Albany, N.Y. ??

[Fonceai]

@rcne

The one in October?

Dude, I LIVE in the Capital District of NY and I'm pissed that it would cost me $270 to attend.

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Let me see if I understand this correctly...

Gravity doesn't affect photons. Instead, the extreme space curvature of astronomical gravity means that light "disappears" while it travels the curve and then comes back out the other side at different times.

Does that mean the "black" of a black hole is the area of the curve where light is travelling along the warped space instead of moving straight at us?

[rcne]

Loop quantum gravity, one of the leading approaches to the unification of general relativity with quantum physics, was pioneered at the Institute of Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State, which Ashtekar directs. The theory posits that space-time geometry itself has a discrete "atomic" structure, Ashtekar explains. Instead of the familiar space-time continuum, the fabric of space is made up of one-dimensional quantum threads. Near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn, and these quantum properties cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive. While the idea of another universe existing prior to the Big Bang has been proposed before, he adds, this is the first mathematical description that systematically establishes its existence and deduces its space-time geometry.

http://www.physorg.com/news73844848.html

[Fonceai]

God I love this physics stuff. I could talk about it all day.

But how does that relate, then to post 7 and the gravity well?

[dreamer]

what can gravity hold can it hold wind no, light no, the spirit with in everybody no. Gravity has nothing to do with realty, nor time, space. Gravity is just a rotation magnetic pull, whats that got to do with god.
Dreamer

[Fonceai]

Thanks for sharing Dreamer.

Though this has nothing to do with god.

My use of the word was in exclamation, not to open a new can of worms.

Your poetry is appreciated, and can't be stopped, but it really has no context here.

[dreamer]

Quote by: Fonceai Thanks for sharing Dreamer. Though this has nothing to do with god. My use of the word was in exclamation, not to open a new can of worms. Your poetry is appreciated, and can't be stopped, but it really has no context here.

can of worms sometimes answers the question you are looking for but doesnt mean you will get the answer. Poertry opens the heart to space time and everything.
Dreamer

[Kuroko]

Quote by: Fonceai Gravity doesn't affect photons. Instead, the extreme space curvature of astronomical gravity means that light "disappears" while it travels the curve and then comes back out the other side at different times.

Yes and no, light in this model doesn't truelly get curved, unless the space-time affected has particles where by light becomes refracted. There would be a kind of "time delay" while like travelled the extra distance of space time encountered in a black hole the only light truelly capable of becoming "stuck" would be the light the black hole emited itself and that is only technically, it is also dependant of the speed oft he black hole through normal space time not the space time it distorts.

If you wear glasses and your walking past a light, your glasses in your shadow appear about as dark as the "solid" parts of your shadow, light passes through your glasses easily enough but majority of the light is refracted away. Light changes speed when it passes through different densities we all know that, refraction causes light to change it's wavelength and this causes it to slow down depending on the altered wavelength. The light through your glasses isn't bent, it's just broken and traveling at a different speed to the light passing arround it.

People might be asking about reflection of the lense creating the shadow but this is also a common effect with some thing like your finger in a glass of water looking snapped or off cut.

Enough about the high school physics class. Where my theory comes in is that unlike refraction, or even curvature of light through 'gravitons' the explination of light in this model can exist in both the string theory AND Einstein's theory of rellativity.

Light remains constant in speed throughout vacume however even when it is slowed down through means of higher densities it "accelerates" as it goes back into vacuum.

It does not stand to reason on lights ability to do this. Not with current techniques any way.

[Plasma Snake[D]]

How messed up it is to think that we are just matter floating around in space. Time depends on how big you are and how fast you are going(?).

[Fonceai]

@Kuroko

Actually, I think glasses cast a slight shadow because of refraction. Not all of the light is passing straight through the glasses. That's why you see a slightly opaque shadow and off to the side you see where that remaining light was focused.

@Plasma Snake

What do you mean? Could you elaborate?

[Autolykos]

Speaking of gravity and photons... do you think that gravity "propagates" at the speed of light? Why or why not? I don't.

- Rob

[Fonceai]

I asked that question once before.

I thought the "speed of gravity" was instant. But mathematical proof shows that it's actually close to the speed of light.

Calculations have shown that gravity travels at 1.2c, with a 0.6 margin of error.

[Autolykos]

Do you know what the mathematical proof was? If not, can you link to it somewhere?

I don't see why gravity and the speed of light are necessarily linked, or why gravity has to have a "speed" of "propagation" at all.

- Rob

[Fonceai]

I agree with you, and I still question the math involved.

http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp
Complicated and wordy.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...ed_030116.html
Reflects my own, partially-educated opinion.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...rav_speed.html
Much less wordy article.

http://www.ldolphin.org/vanFlandern/gravityspeed.html
Simpler version of the first link.

My doubts are that this is only mathematical proof. Personally, if the Sun were to suddenly vanish, I don't think it would take 8 minutes for the Earth to stop its orbit and fly off in a straight path.

I think it would be instant.

[Autolykos]

I read the third link first, but it didn't seem right somehow. It was in favor of the "gravity propagates at light speed" theory. Then I read the first link. While more complicated and wordier, it also made the most sense to me. It presents evidence, both experimental and inferential, that gravity propagates much, much faster than the speed of light. From what I have read, then, I conclude that the latter theory seems correct.

- Rob