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The Dark Corners of Evolutionary Activism

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By Paul Greene

Excerpt from “A Time of Change – On the Necessary Return to a Rational Understanding of the Nature of Man and the Universe.”



Chapter 12.
… it is “not a good thing to be critical of evolutionism.”
– Eugenie Scott, Executive Director for the National Center for Science Education. (From an interview Scott once gave to a reporter partially shown in the Icons of Evolution , a documentary produced by ColdWater Media)

Her statement was in reference to the case of a teacher by the name of Roger DeHart from Burlington, a town in the state of Washington. DeHart ended up losing his job as a biology teacher when he insisted he should be allowed to present in front of his high school students some of the articles written by scientists with prestigious scientific organizations and peer reviewed exposing the flaws in the theory of evolution.

What happened to DeHart is reminiscent of the way dictatorial Eastern European regimes used to declare highly qualified professors unfit to teach in schools and universities when they refused to promote in front of their students the falsified version of the history of their country concocted by government propagandists.

The Eugenie Scotts of our education system are the same individuals who continue to put Haeckel’s embryo drawings or derivatives of his drawings in our students’ biology books despite the fact that they were exposed years ago for being highly deceptive. Known as the German Darwin, Ernst Haeckel was a good friend and a staunch supporter of Charles Darwin. Paradoxically, he too did not buy the idea that natural selection and gradual evolution were responsible for the species we see around us.

The reason why he was endorsing public the theory of evolution was because similar to Thomas Huxley he too was of the opinion that even if it lacked in credibility this theory was the best tool scientists had at their disposition to help them fight religious irrational. While this was certainly a noble cause, in order to justify as a scientist his support for evolution Haeckel resorted to falsifying evidence, and as history will have it he would not be the last one to do that.

His drawings suggest common ancestry based on a series of made-up, as in manipulated embryonic similarities. No other than evolutionary biologist Stephen Jay Gould, NCSE’s idol and Project Steve’s patron stated about the dishonorable use of Haeckel’s falsified evidence that
We should... not be surprised that Haeckel’s drawings entered nineteenth-century textbooks. But we do, I think, have the right to be both astonished and ashamed by the century of mindless recycling that has led to the persistence of these drawings in a large number, if not a majority, of modern textbooks! (March 2000, Nature magazine)

The activist propagandistic attributions of something deceptively called National Center for Science Education are more than obvious. To give another significant example, we know that Professor Scott Minnich refused to be interviewed for the PBS documentary Intelligent Design on Trial. Contrary to what Paula Apsell, senior executive producer declared at the time, as Minnich explained to me during an e-mail exchange we had a couple of years ago the actual reason he did not appear in her film was because he feared retribution from the part of the academic organization he worked for.

After that exchange of e-mails with Minnich, I did some additional research and I was able to find out that, well, he was not kidding. A week before the Dover trial, the President of the University of Idaho, the school where Minnich was a course coordinator went on record stating that intelligent design could not be discussed in science class or on the campus.

The same week, apparently part of a concentrated effort to put Minnich on notice once he made known his decision to testify in Dover in support of intelligent design, the Biology Department at the UI sponsored a lecture against intelligent design given by no other than Eugenie Scott, the expert in spreading false information in our schools. Needless to say it, no one was encouraged to present a counter-argument to Scott’s biased views.

The Biology Department of Lehigh University in Pennsylvania, the school Professor Michael Behe is teaching at, has also chosen to make a public statement proclaiming its strong opposition to his anti-evolution scientific views. It is worth reproducing it here in its entirety since this is something extremely representative for the game of politics associated with the public debate over the validity of the theory of evolution played by our universities:


Department Position on Evolution and "Intelligent Design"

The faculty in the Department of Biological Sciences is committed to the highest standards of scientific integrity and academic function. This commitment carries with it unwavering support for academic freedom and the free exchange of ideas. It also demands the utmost respect for the scientific method, integrity in the conduct of research, and recognition that the validity of any scientific model comes only as a result of rational hypothesis testing, sound experimentation, and findings that can be replicated by others.

The department faculty, then, are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory, which has its roots in the seminal work of Charles Darwin and has been supported by findings accumulated over 140 years. The sole dissenter from this position, Prof. Michael Behe, is a well-known proponent of “intelligent design.” While we respect Prof. Behe’s right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.

When was the last time they performed a “rational hypothesis testing” of the theory of evolution, though? Never. And why on earth would anyone want to test intelligent design experimentally? Do we need to test the fact that cats have four legs? Is there really a need to test the fact that we have five fingers on each of our hands and five toes on each of our feet? What kind of test one would have to perform in order to prove the four figures of former American presidents on Mount Rushmore are the work of an intelligent being and not Mother Nature? And last but not the least why is Behe’s position not founded on “the utmost respect for the scientific method”?

Apparently, those who wrote the above statement did not care to truthfully acknowledge what he actually wrote about. The undertone of their position was obviously political, nothing to do with science or with “integrity in the conduct of research.” After all, Behe was a biology professor they presumably hired because of his integrity and his respect for the scientific method. Those who read Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box know that contrary to what the Department of Biology at Lehigh University declares, and unlike the theory of evolution, intelligent design is a fact any of us can observe. One would also say intelligent design was tested experimentally since anyone interested in understanding what intelligent design actually stands for can look at what biology tells us about the molecular structures and functions of our organs, for example, and take notice of the reality of the fact that all biological systems are irreducibly complex. Intelligent design is not a theory. All it takes to acknowledge its reality is a simple act of observation, honesty, and your basic ability to process the information encoded into the facts observed.

That being said, while everything is intelligently designed we actually do not know who or what is behind that. The main controversial issue about ID is that some are unwilling to acknowledge its reality because of the terms under which religious people do. Creationists claim ID proves the existence of a creator, which nothing but an unproven assumption, sort of like the assumptions made by Darwin in his theory. The capital problem for evolutionists though is that the intelligent design aspect of the universe implies that everything in nature is assembled and then functions according to an existing idea, concept or plan. This leads to an inevitable inference that makes the evolutionists go bunkers: random mutations could not produce irreducibly complex systems. As a result, according to the very data produced by biologists gradual evolution has no bases in reality. As unsubstantiated the assumption that a supernatural human-like agent is behind the intelligent design aspect of the universe, we should not dismiss the amazing reality of design simply because for their own reasons creationists chose to make it into something it is not.

A declaration of support for academic freedom can only be taken serious if an university allows its faculty to encourage and the students to enter a debate where everyone is free to advance conflicting unorthodox opinions. The Biology Department, however, used its position of power to impose a new brand of orthodoxy.

Instead of creating the premises and an environment conducive of a healthy academic debate, on April 6, 2006, Lehigh University invited the same evolutionary activist Eugenie Scott to speak to its students as part of Foster Hewett Lectures Series, Department of Earth and Environmental Services, something described on their website as four days of “social events on the topic of biological evolution.” Undoubtedly, the university was dedicating actually its funds and efforts to promoting academic bias rather than academic freedom.

Read more excerpts from A Time of Change at:

A Time Of Change
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Updated 18th July 2012 at 12:33 PM by Gnosius

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  1. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    Good to know that only a scant few weeks can pass before someone attempts to support the bunk that is "intelligent design," around here.

    There is no scientific controversy surrounding evolution, and there is no giant conspiracy to advance evolution at the cost of any other viable theory.

    The problem is that intelligent design is emphatically not a viable theory, or a scientific hypothesis in any way. Those that attempt to advance it are doing so at the risk of their own scientific credibility, precisely because they're advancing a fundamentally unscientific position.
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  2. Gnosius's Avatar
    There is no scientific controversy surrounding evolution, and there is no giant conspiracy to advance evolution at the cost of any other viable theory.
    If that is true, why then South Korea, one of the most technologically advanced countries in Asia took evolution out of school text books a few months ago. As even Nature magazine had to admit, they did that on purely scientific bases, and religion had absolutely nothing to do with it.

    The problem is that intelligent design is emphatically not a viable theory
    You may want to read again my post. I make it very clear that intelligent design is not a theory. The intelligent design aspect of our universe is a fact, not a hypothesis. One does not have to prove or test the claim that the cat has four legs since anyone of us can observe that, unless we are blind or we refuse to rationally acknowledge reality.

    Those that attempt to advance it are doing so at the risk of their own scientific credibility, precisely because they're advancing a fundamentally unscientific position
    Have you notice how many along the history of man have risked their reputation to advance something they knew it was true. Just because church people made intelligent design into something it is not it does not mean the world is not intelligently, while not perfect, designed. The concept of intelligent design was not introduced by church theologians. Socrates was one of the first ones to make the case for ID, and did that brilliantly too.
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  3. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    If that is true, why then South Korea, one of the most technologically advanced countries in Asia took evolution out of school text books a few months ago. As even Nature magazine had to admit, they did that on purely scientific bases, and religion had absolutely nothing to do with it.
    Absolutely and unequiovocally untrue.
    The move has alarmed biologists, who say that they were not consulted. “The ministry just sent the petition out to the publishing companies and let them judge,” says Dayk Jang, an evolutionary scientist at Seoul National University.
    The roots of the South Korean antipathy to evolution are unclear, although Jeon suggests that they are partly “due to strong Christianity in the country”. About half of South Korea’s citizens practice a religion, mostly split between Christianity and Buddhism.
    South Korea surrenders to creationist demands : Nature News & Comment
    South Korea's strong creationist sentiment is apparently due in part to its large Christian population. When it comes to evolutionary skepticism, surveys show that South Korea's numbers are comparable to those of the United States. Nearly one-third of South Koreans don't believe in evolution, claiming that there isn't enough scientific evidence to support it, or that it contradicted their religious beliefs.
    South Korea will remove evolution from its high school textbooks

    They did so not on a scientific basis, but on an ideological basis and with a lack of consideration and respect for scientific consensus.

    You may want to read again my post. I make it very clear that intelligent design is not a theory. The intelligent design aspect of our universe is a fact, not a hypothesis. One does not have to prove or test the claim that the cat has four legs since anyone of us can observe that, unless we are blind or we refuse to rationally acknowledge reality.
    It is absolutely and unequivocably not a fact. It is not even a scientific hypothesis. It is an argument from ignorance, pure and simple
    Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Have you notice how many along the history of man have risked their reputation to advance something they knew it was true. Just because church people made intelligent design into something it is not it does not mean the world is not intelligently, while not perfect, designed. The concept of intelligent design was not introduced by church theologians. Socrates was one of the first ones to make the case for ID, and did that brilliantly too.
    Right, and Socrates also argued that matter was composed of four elements. Turned out that was wrong. Your entire point here is an argument from authority (Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The fact of the matter is, in over a century and a half of study, evolution has never been falsified, despite being a fully falsifiable scientific theory.

    More to the point, the material available from reputable, peer-reviewed scientific journals supporting evolution published in a single week more than quadruples every anti-evolution peer reviewed publication ever made.

    If you have the time, I suggest you look at the following two threads. In them there are strong arguments against intelligent design, and a rather comprehensive discussion of the flaws in the intelligent design hypothesis.
    http://www.volconvo.com/forums/scien...nt-design.html
    http://www.volconvo.com/forums/relig...evolution.html

    I also suggest that if you wish to continue the debate further, you post in a previously existing thread covering the topic, or start a new thread if you are so inclined. Suffice to say that I can and will offer a significant counter-argument – and that I can do so based almost wholly on published and peer reviewed scientific work.
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  4. Gnosius's Avatar
    To that avalanche of untrue, propagandist statements, I will restrict my input into the current debate to reproducing a quote from the same article in Nature from which you have quoted selectively and out of context:

    "However, a survey of trainee teachers in the country concluded that religious belief was not a strong determinant of their acceptance of evolution3. It also found that 40% of biology teachers agreed with the statement that “much of the scientific community doubts if evolution occurs”; and half disagreed that “modern humans are the product of evolutionary processes”.
    Until now, says Dayk Jang, the scientific community has done little to combat the anti-evolution sentiment. “The biggest problem is that there are only 5–10 evolutionary scientists in the country who teach the theory of evolution in undergraduate and graduate schools,” he says. Having seen the fierce debates over evolution in the United States, he adds, some scientists also worry that engaging with creationists might give creationist views more credibility among the public."

    South Korea surrenders to creationist demands : Nature News & Comment
    The fact that Nature chose to label this event as a victory for creationists is highly misleading when the same magazine reminds his readers that the decision was made on purely scientific grounds (see the case of the Archaeopteryx, for example). This was a victory for science and for mankind as a whole, a victory for common sense. You like to believe that the reason why some are convinced evolution never happened is because those darn creationists make us believe so, as if we do not have the ability to judge for ourselves.

    Gradual evolution by the way of natural selection never happened and never will. Belief in the miracles of evolution was intended to replace the belief in the supernatural and totally imaginary gods of their religions to keep man enslaved to his materialist perception of reality, something that suits the powers that be. Your standard biased and chuck-full of falsehood articles, links and quotes of rebuttal will never change that. Both creationism and evolutionism are detrimental doctrines that hinder the progress of our civilization. Good science is the answer, and the theory of evolution is anything but.
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  5. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    First, you chose to characterize the Nature News article thusly:
    As even Nature magazine had to admit, they did that on purely scientific bases, and religion had absolutely nothing to do with it.
    That statement is, by the very title of the article to which you refer, untrue. Nature News goes on to say that there is an ideological basis for the changes to South Korean textbooks, and that these changes go against the recommendations of the South Korean scientific community, and the international scientific community at large.

    I made absolutely no propagandist statements, and I’ve both provided you a link to the article and provided specific quotes of the article which show your above statement to be a blatant falsity.
    The fact that Nature chose to label this event as a victory for creationists is highly misleading when the same magazine reminds his readers that the decision was made on purely scientific grounds (see the case of the Archaeopteryx, for example).
    The fact that Nature News chose to discuss this event as it did precisely contradicts the above quote by you. It was not made on purely scientific grounds, as the article discussed, and furthermore there is no controversy about whether or not Archaeopteryx represents a transition from dinosaurs to birds – but rather, that the place Archaeopteryx is believed to occupy on that particular tree is changing in light of more recent discoveries.
    This was a victory for science and for mankind as a whole, a victory for common sense. You like to believe that the reason evolution never happen is because those darn creationists make us believe so, as if we do not have the ability to judge for ourselves.
    This was a victory for those amongst us who want mankind to remain ignorant. I have no idea what you mean by the second sentence in the above quote – evolution happens, whether we believe it to or not.
    Gradual evolution by the way of natural selection never happened and never will.
    Sorry to say, it has and does – as I said, literally a week’s worth of peer-reviewed publications in the field more than quadruples (and that’s my personal and highly conservative estimate) all peer reviewed publications ever that doubt evolution.
    Belief in the miracles of evolution was intended to replace the belief in the supernatural and totally imaginary gods of their religions to keep man enslaved to his materialist perception of reality, something that suits the powers that be.
    First, evolution is not a belief. It is a verified and verifiable fact – evolution occurs. The theory of evolution is how and why evolution occurs. Evolution – and science in general – takes no stance on the existence of deities or religion; rather, it is intended to explore observable and testable phenomena. That those observations and their explanations cast into doubt the veracity of human accounts of deities is not the fault of science, nor of scientists – it’s a consequence of the lack of evidence for those deities, and the conflicting nature of supernatural explanations for phenomena (which lack evidence) versus naturalistic explanations (which have evidence).
    Your standard biased and chuck-full of falsehood articles, links and quotes of rebuttal will never change that.
    Well, it only won’t to the willfully ignorant, of which you appear to be one. I’m curious to know how you think a vast majority of scientists on the planet in the past century and a half have been so hoodwinked by evolutionary theory that no one out there would stand up and prove it to be false, if it were false. The pursuit of scientific knowledge is (as much as can be accomplished in any human endeavor) ideologically neutral – even a radical idea can and will be accepted by the scientific community at large provided that there is sufficient evidence shown to support it. Evolution itself started out as such a radical idea, but was supported by decades of research by Darwin himself, and has only been further supported by subsequent research in the past century and a half.
    Both creationism and evolutionism are detrimental doctrine that hinder the progress of our civilization. Good science is the answer, and the theory of evolution is anything but.
    What would you propose is “good science,” then?

    I’d suggest that “good science,” requires a falsifiable hypothesis (which the theory of evolution is) and the proof of such a hypothesis must be objective (not dependent on who does the experiments) and transferrable (not dependent on where the experiments are done). That is, evidence for a hypothesis must be able to be reproduced and observed by independent researchers no matter where or when they do the experiment, provided the experimental conditions are recreated faithfully.

    I’d suggest that you have absolutely no idea of what does and does not constitute science, and are remarkably ignorant of science as a field, much less evolution.
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  6. Gnosius's Avatar
    Ha! You bury the conversation in tons of falsehood making it very difficult for a rational human being to engage into debunking every one of your statements. In your previous comment you wrote:

    "Right, and Socrates also argued that matter was composed of four elements. Turned out that was wrong."
    I doubt you read Socrates' argument in favor of intelligent design. If you did, you would have not dismissed what I said so casually. Secondly, the concept of "four elements" to which many would add a forth, the ether, is pre-Socratic, as Plato acknowledges, and it was also embraced by ancient Egyptians, the Maya, Hindu, Buddhist and so on and so on. Last but not the least, when and by who was that proved wrong, as you claim?

    Everything else you claim in your comment belongs in the same category of learned by heart, classic standard propagandistic pro-evolution evidence. The reason why you chose to blind yourself to the factuality of intelligent design is because it totally debunks the theory of evolution. It does the same thing to the creationist doctrine but that is another theme for another blog.

    Meanwhile, since you are so sure evolution is fact, give us one single example of a documented transition from a complex organism to a new complex organism by the way of gradually adding new parts sorted out by natural selection. And while at it, explain to us where the information stored in the DNA comes from, information without which we would not have a living organism to begin with (no evolution required). (please do not post links to the wikepedia, the billboard for pro-evolution propaganda. use your own words and your own knowledge). All the best.
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  7. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    Ha! You bury the conversation in tons of falsehood making it very difficult for a rational human being to engage into debunking every one of your statements. In your previous comment you wrote:
    A blatant mischaracterization of my argument. What “falsehoods,” have I stated?
    I doubt you read Socrates' argument in favor of intelligent design. If you did, you would have not dismissed what I said so casually.
    I dismiss what you say casually because I know it to be nonsense. I have examined the evidence, and there is no evidence which supports intelligent design as a scientific hypothesis.
    Secondly, the concept of "four elements" to which many would add a forth, the ether, is pre-Socratic, as Plato acknowledges, and it was also embraced by ancient Egyptians, the Maya, Hindu, Buddhist and so on and so on. Last but not the least, when and by who was that proved wrong, as you claim?
    Did I say that Socrates originated the idea? No. I said he argued in favor of the idea. Someone needs to learn how to read.

    The idea of the “ether,” as a fabric of the universe was disproved by the Michelson-Morely experiment.
    The Michelson-Morley Experiment

    The idea that matter is composed of four elements was disproven by the discovery of the atom and by the discovery of the ninety two natural elements that we now know the universe is composed of.
    Element Discovery Timeline - When Were the Elements Discovered?

    Everything else you claim in your comment belongs in the same category of learned by heart, classic standard propagandistic pro-evolution evidence.
    If evolutionary theory is “propaganda,” then why can you not refute its veracity?
    The reason why you chose to blind yourself to the factuality of intelligent design is because it totally debunks the theory of evolution.
    No, I haven’t “blinded,” myself to intelligent design. I’ve thoroughly investigated the evidence, and it turns out that intelligent design is unproven. I’ll readily admit I cannot say it is absolutely untrue; however, it has absolutely no evidence which supports it, and the only argument that can be made in its favor is an argument from ignorance. An argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy, and is not in fact proof of anything, ever.
    Meanwhile, since you are so sure evolution is fact, give us one single example of a documented transition from a complex organism to a new complex organism by the way of gradually adding new parts sorted out by natural selection.
    Sure, how about the evolution of whales?
    Evolution: Library: Whale Evolution
    The evolution of whales

    Or the evolution of birds?
    The Life of Birds | Evolution
    The origin of birds
    New "Mini" Dinosaur a Step in Bird Evolution Path

    Or of horses?
    Horse Evolution
    Horse Evolution Over 55 Million Years

    Or of human beings (for this one, there’s an entire peer-reviewed scientific journal)?
    Journal of Human Evolution - Elsevier
    Introduction to Human Evolution | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program

    I could literally provide examples all day long. I used sources that are not scientific journals above, because I doubt you have access to those journals. If you would like peer-reviewed articles on each of those subjects, you need only ask. I will provide them, even if they are behind a pay wall.
    And while at it, explain to us where the information stored in the DNA comes from, information without which we would not have a living organism to begin with (no evolution required).
    Ah, now you’re using a common ID/creationist tactic: conflate abiogenesis (the origin of life) with evolution (the change in living organisms over time). The two are separate fields; one need not prove abiogenesis to have occurred in order to prove that evolution occurs or occurred.

    Nevertheless, I’m up to the task.

    Significant research in the past half-century has shown the following:
    (1) The molecules necessary for the construction of biological organisms are formed under prebiotic conditions on the early earth (approx.. 4 billion years ago).
    (2) Short polymers of those molecules are also produced under prebiotic conditions.
    (3) Those polymers are capable of self-catalyzing and self-replicating reactions under appropriate conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, polynucleotides (specifically, RNAs).

    The current leading hypothesis in chemical biology is referred to as the “RNA World,” – the hypothesis wherein polyribonucleic acids (RNAs) originated under prebiotic conditions and were capable of self-catalysis and reproduction; gradual increases in complexity, sequestration inside lipid vesicles (which are formed spontaneously from lipids in water), and a change to deoxyribonucleic acid (which is more stable – DNA) lead to the first protocells. From there, it’s evolution by natural selection, leading to the increasing complexity and diversity of life we observe in the fossil record and today.

    The Origin of Life
    Exploring Life's Origins: Ribozymes & the RNA World
    RNA world easier to make : Nature News
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  8. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    The idea of "irreducible complexity," has also been thoroughly debunked.

    The Flagellum Unspun
    Irreducible Complexity proven to evolve - Skeptico
    Debunking irreducible complexity - Uncommon Ground
    Evolution Of Irreducible Complexity Explained

    Additionally, the concept used by William Dembski and his adherents - that "functionally specified complex information," cannot evolve - has been thoroughly debunked.
    Dissecting Dembski's "Complex Specified Information"
    http://www.pnas.org/content/104/suppl.1/8574.full.pdf
    EVOLUTION OF A REGULATED OPERON IN THE LABORATORY

    For a more complete discussion, see the last few pages here: http://www.volconvo.com/forums/scien...design-10.html
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  9. Gnosius's Avatar
    Well, I asked you to describe in your own words one single case of documented transition from one complex organism to a new complex organism. As expected, you were unable to provide that specific evidence. Instead, you resorted, like all the others in your corner, to copy-pasting already concocted "evidence" which consists actually in proclamations and no scientific facts at all. You cannot just claim whales are evidence of evolution and think you can get away with. I asked for a reason that you describe for us IN YOUR OWN WORDS this alleged process, and you didn't, because you can't, for it never happened.

    Other than that, do not kid yourself. If your evolution cannot explain the origin of life on our planet, of rudimentary life forms, and you admitted it can't, how do you expect to be taken serious when you claim you can explain how more complex organisms came to be what they are. Once again, without the DNA you do not have reproduction, and without reproduction you would not have your imaginary evolution. Your evolution implies a change in the genetic code stored in the DNA, and biology and genetics tell us there are special devices set in place to make sure changes do not occur. That's why you will always have whales give birth to whales and not to hippopotamuses.

    You make this into a war between creationists and evolutionists. I make it into a cool-headed debate between supporters of good science and proponents of pseudo-science. Contrary to what you claim, it was proven evolution is not good science, and creationists do not gain any points because quantum physics does an excellent job at explaining reality and the origin of everything in our universe on rational bases. And we are just beginning to figure that out. However, in order to go forward we need to shed our belief in imaginary gods and imaginary random mutations first.
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  10. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    Well, I asked you to describe in your own words one single case of documented transition from one complex organism to a new complex organism. As expected, you were unable to provide that specific evidence. Instead, you resorted, like all the others in your corner, to copy-pasting already concocted "evidence" which consists actually in proclamations and no scientific facts at all. You cannot just claim whales are evidence of evolution and think you can get away with. I asked for a reason that you describe for us IN YOUR OWN WORDS this alleged process, and you didn't, because you can't, for it never happened.
    Because I didn’t – rather than providing you with the information directly – paraphrase the information (perhaps incorrectly) it doesn’t count? That, sir, is entirely intellectually dishonest. It just goes to show that you can lead an ignorant person to information, but you can't make them learn.

    I’m not an evolutionary biologist; I’m a chemical biologist (a field that is related to, but distinct from, molecular biology). I provided multiple sources on each subject for multiple known occurances of everything from speciation to the development of an entirely new class of organism. That you refuse to acknowledge the validity of said information, request verification, or further debate any of the above points only illustrates shocking willful ignorance on your part.

    Other than that, do not kid yourself. If your evolution cannot explain the origin of life on our planet, of rudimentary life forms, and you admitted it can't, how do you expect to be taken serious when you claim you can explain how more complex organisms came to be what they are.
    Another example of intellectual dishonesty. As I said, there is a distinction between abiogenesis (the origin of life) and evolution (the change of living organisms over time). The origins of life are moderately well-understood. The evolution of life is very well understood and entirely true.

    That you do not care to make such distinctions only displays an imprecision of argumentative faculty, and a further willful misrepresentation of the information at hand.
    Once again, without the DNA you do not have reproduction, and without reproduction you would not have your imaginary evolution.
    Untrue. Polypeptides are capable of “reproducing,” as are polynucleotides (RNAs). Reproduction only implies the ability of an entity to make a copy of itself. That simple biopolymers are capable of such processes has been well understood for at least a decade now.
    Your evolution implies a change in the genetic code stored in the DNA, and biology and genetics tell us there are special devices set in place to make sure changes do not occur. That's why you will always have whales give birth to whales and not to hippopotamuses.
    Actually, there will special devices set in place that make sure mutations do occur. Cells in living organisms do attempt to protect themselves from DNA damage and mutation; reproductive cells, however, are far more genetically malleable, and furthermore there are distinctive mechanisms (translocation, for example) by which rather sizeable changes to DNA can occur.

    This is in complex organisms only. Bacteria are even more genetically malleable – to the point of using exogenous DNA to add to their genetic material (referred to as transformation; see also the term plasmid).

    You make this into a war between creationists and evolutionists.
    No, I’m not talking about creationists. I’m talking about proponents of intelligent design.
    I make it into a cool-headed debate between supporters of good science and proponents of pseudo-science.
    Right, except you’re wrong about which part of the discussion is pseudoscience. Evolution is not pseudoscience; intelligent design is.
    Contrary to what you claim, it was proven evolution is not good science, and creationists do not gain any points because quantum physics does an excellent job at explaining reality and the origin of everything in our universe on rational bases.
    You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.
    And we are just beginning to figure that out. However, in order to go forward we need to shed our belief in imaginary gods and imaginary random mutations first.
    I totally agree. Random mutations are not a belief. They are a fact.
    In short, you’re clearly deluded, and have absolutely no concept of what you’re talking about. I won’t reply further until you can offer any evidence which supports your assertions. When you attempt to do so, I will swiftly and wholly show that evidence to be absolutely and unequivocably false.
    Good luck.
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  11. Gnosius's Avatar
    Random mutations are not a belief. They are a fact.
    Really? Once again, give me one single example of a documented random mutations that has resulted in new parts being added to an existing complex biological system. And, once again, use you own words. You keep saying evolution is fact and when I ask for evidence you keep sending everyone to the same old misconceptions placed on web pages for the gullible. As you may know, to have a new part added to an existing species you would have to have multiple simultaneous random mutations, which is almost an oxymoron. And how does a biological entity know to build interlocking sexual organs on totally separate individuals, that's another mystery associated with the miracles of random mutations.

    Other than that, your so-called evidence is actually evidence of those dark corners of evolutionary activism I was pointing at in my blog.
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  12. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    Really? Once again, give me one single example of a documented random mutations that has resulted in new parts being added to an existing complex biological system.
    How about natural selection re-constructing a previously existing biological pathway, as demonstrated in the work of B.G. Hall?
    Or the evolution of nylonase (a protein which digests nylon – which did not exist prior to the 1930’s) in bacteria exposed to nylon manufacturing waste?
    And, once again, use you own words.
    I can and am willing to do so – but the very fact that you try to refute my arguments by saying that I have not made them personally is disingenuous. We stand on the shoulders of giants – the collective human knowledge base is currently far wider than any one person can know, and claiming that we don’t know the truth on a particular matter because an individual is unable to recapitulate the evidence and arguments offered by others is intellectually dishonest.
    You keep saying evolution is fact and when I ask for evidence you keep sending everyone to the same old misconceptions placed on web pages for the gullible.
    On web pages? Hardly. Try in the most prestigious peer-reviewed journals in the world. They are not misconceptions. That evolution occurs is an undeniable fact. That mutations occur is an undeniable fact. To suggest otherwise is to show one’s self to be entirely ignorant of the past century of biology.
    As you may know, to have a new part added to an existing species you would have to have multiple simultaneous random mutations, which is almost an oxymoron. And how does a biological entity know to build interlocking sexual organs on totally separate individuals, that's another mystery associated with the miracles of random mutations.
    There are no “miracles,” in molecular biology. Everything is entirely, and quite completely, explained by naturalistic mechanisms. I would and could provide an entire picture, personally, but I lack the time and do not wish to put forth the required effort to convince such an ignorant person as yourself. It is quite clear that you have absolutely no desire to learn anything about biology or evolution, but only wish to accept evidence which fits into your preconceived notions of the workings of the universe.

    It suffices to say that you are wrong, that I know you to be wrong, and that all objective evidence available shows you to be wrong. When you are able and willing to discuss said evidence, we may do so.
    Other than that, your so-called evidence is actually evidence of those dark corners of evolutionary activism I was pointing at in my blog.
    There’s no such thing as “evolutionary activism,” as “activism,” implies a political or ideological goal. Evolutionary science is not a goal – it is a conclusion, based on a century and a half of comprehensive research that has been shown to be valid in every instance in which it has been tested.
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  13. Gnosius's Avatar
    How about natural selection re-constructing a previously existing biological pathway, as demonstrated in the work of B.G. Hall?
    Or the evolution of nylonase (a protein which digests nylon – which did not exist prior to the 1930’s) in bacteria exposed to nylon manufacturing waste?
    As you may have guessed, I am actually very familiar with your examples, or otherwise I would have not asked you to provide them: they are the only ones being circulated on every each forum I was on by supporters of evolution. I did not read you entire comment but usually the cit+ bacteria is one other infamous evolution at work example. These are anything but mutations that would result in a new species. The fact that a protein digest nylon is not even close to a lizard growing wings or a mysterious hoofed animal turning into a giraffe as claimed by evolutionists. That involves a serious modification of the nervous system, circulatory, system, bone structure and so on, and so on.These are not the documented case of one complex organism turning into a new and different species by the way of gradual mutations I asked for. If you want to believe they are, it is your prerogative to do that and I am going to hug you friendly from a distance for good buy.
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  14. HoleyCarbonGrid's Avatar
    As you may have guessed, I am actually very familiar with your examples, or otherwise I would have not asked you to provide them: they are the only ones being circulated on every each forum I was on by supporters of evolution.
    Then you’re even more of an idiot. And you’re moving the goal posts. You’ve tried to state that evolution itself does not occur – that absolutely no changes to organisms occur via random mutation and natural selection.

    The evolution of nylonase definitively disproves that notion – it required the construction of an entirely new metabolic pathway, all of which happened by random mutation and natural selection. As does the reconstruction of a knockout gene. As does... well, as I said, anything from a week's worth of peer-reviewed scientific work on the subject would bury any opposing argument, provided the people making that opposing argument weren't willfully ignorant.
    These are anything but mutations that would result in a new species. The fact that a protein digest nylon is not even close to a lizard growing wings or a mysterious hoofed animal turning into a giraffe as claimed by evolutionists.
    Speciation is nothing but small progressive changes taken over time. As is the evolution of a new genus, or even class. The nylon eating bacteria are fundamentally different than the bacterial population they originated from. Speciation events have been observed in the fossil record and in the lab.

    Take birds, for example. By the cretaceous period, a number of dinosaur species were feathered (including therapod species). Therapods, being two-legged, somewhat longer armed species (and believed to have been warm blooded), some of which began to evolve wing-like structures. Upon evolving wing-like structures, further small progressive changes – slight changes to bone structure; the hollowing of bones for lightness; changes to the feathers to more effectively trap air (and note that not all of these things happen simultaneously; they happen over the course of millions of years, in small progressive steps) – lead to flight.

    That you don’t have any actual objection to any of the evidence of I’ve offered, nor an apparent understanding of even how to object, only displays your marked ignorance of the subject. Quite honestly, I shouldn’t care so much about people being so incredibly ignorant, but the fact of the matter is that ignorance is dangerous.
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  15. Gnosius's Avatar
    Then you’re even more of an idiot.
    How typical. You run out of your ready-made list of arguments and then you resort to calling people idiots. I thought it was against the rule here at Volconvo. Richard Dawkins too calls people who do not believe what he believes in idiots. And I have not seen anyone more incoherent and confused than this "scientist" in my life. Again, how typical. I have been on many forums and evolutionists always end up acting like you. First, if you disagree with them they call you a creationist even if clearly you are not one. Then, when every bit of their classic evidence is debunked they call you "idiot" and other names. Very classy, and very rational, not. You know the saying, tell me who your friends and I can tell you who you are. To paraphrase that, I say, you can tell if a theory or an idea is worth anything by looking at who and how is defending it. Your uncivil totalitarian attitude does not make the theory of evolution fact. Gradual evolution never happened and never will.
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  16. Gnosius's Avatar
    I'm going to let Volconvo managers decide if calling people idiots and ignorant is acceptable on their site. I will leave you now, really, with the following quote from Mark Twain, the one who despised religion and religious belief, who was not an Atheist, who also made fun of the theory of evolution and was very critical of its derivative, social Darwinism:

    “Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul.”
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  17. Peter's Avatar
    What stunning ignorance and stubbornness. I fear for the human race.
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  18. Gnosius's Avatar
    Quote Quote by: Peter
    What stunning ignorance and stubbornness. I fear for the human race.
    All humans operate at different levels of ignorance. The huge problem for our civilization is that neither creationists nor evolutionists admit to that.
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