US activists rally for immigrants

[Sean]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4846032.stm

Tens of thousands of activists have been rallying in Los Angeles in the US state of California to protest against plans to criminalise undocumented workers. Organiser Javier Rodriguez said demonstrators wanted a immigration system that was humane and not racist. The House of Representatives has passed a bill that would make it a felony for immigrants to be in the US illegally. The Senate is set to discuss the bill on Tuesday. President George Bush has proposed a guest-worker plan. He is proposing to allow foreigners to remain in the US for a set period of time to carry out specific jobs, but his Republican Party is divided over the issue. The president this week urged all sides of the debate to tone down their rhetoric. He said securing borders was a top priority but he also invoked the country's history as "a nation of immigrants" to argue for a balanced approach.

[RickSp]

The press reports half a million marching in LA to protest the legislation that would building walls on the border and make illegals felons on par with murders or bank robbers. Isn't it time to call this legislation what it really is - ugly xenophobic racism.

How may of our ancestors would have managed to qualify under these draconian standards? Are we not a nation of immigrants? Or should we slam the door and dismantle the Statute of Liberty? Perhaps replace the lady of the harbor with a jack-booted border guard?

[rmnunez]

Keep the "US activists" focused on the "immigrant activist's" goals, this morning I heard speculation of ambitious plans and already one of those activists was thinking about bringing that mythical general strike this Mayday. If all sorts of "US activists", whether out of sympathy, to foster their own agendas or just to cause political friction -get involved, the immigrants will not be benefitted.

[Scribbler1]

Another hot button issue. Someone's poll numbers must be slipping. Either that or the government wants to slip something past us pretty soon that the sheep won't like.

[rmnunez]

Scribbler, if you were conspiratorially-minded, what sort of thing do you think the government might try to slip by as the citizenry is distracted with the immigration problem?

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: RickSp Isn't it time to call this legislation what it really is - ugly xenophobic racism.

How do you equate a desire to have a legal process for immigration, and to not have anyone wantonly defy that process, "ugly xenophobic racism"?

Quote by: RickSp How may of our ancestors would have managed to qualify under these draconian standards?

The standard that immigration be legal? That's a "draconian" standard? I'm guessing that most, if not all, of our ancestors somehow managed to meet this "draconian" standard.

Quote by: RickSp Are we not a nation of immigrants? Or should we slam the door and dismantle the Statute of Liberty? Perhaps replace the lady of the harbor with a jack-booted border guard?

I don't see how this legislation is suggesting that we do any such thing.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: rmnunez Scribbler, if you were conspiratorially-minded, what sort of thing do you think the government might try to slip by as the citizenry is distracted with the immigration problem?

With THIS administration? Man, that's a tough one. However, I have watched politics in this country long enough to not be surprised when the government pulls the old smoke and mirrors trick. All you have to do is ask yourself "why now" when you see a long standing situation receive an unusually large amount of attention in a short amount of time. Like the abortion issue. It often gets a LOT of press when, close to election time, a bunch of politicians start shrieking about it. When it is no longer needed it goes right back on the back burner and barely gets a mention.

I'm not saying this means something will definitely happen, but it has all the outward signs of becoming a national distraction. I just keep my eyes a little bit more open when this kind of thing happens.

[rmnunez]

How do you equate a desire to have a legal process for immigration, and to not have anyone wantonly defy that process, "ugly xenophobic racism"?

So would you support legislation to make available enough visas to accomodate demand by people who go unlawfully now? If you wouldn't, why not? You think the place would get swamped by massive flows of foreigners and that there would still be these huge volumes of undocumented crossings?

US immigration legislation determines the number of people who can go there lawfully, all others are there illegally, just adjust the numbers allowed to go legally and those doing so illegally will have to drop.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: rmnunez So would you support legislation to make available enough visas to accomodate demand by people who go unlawfully now?

Yes, absolutely. This country is WAY too big for the Feds to have blanket authority over who gets to come, stay, or be kept out. I say lift all quotas, now.

Quote by: rmnunez US immigration legislation determines the number of people who can go there lawfully, all others are there illegally, just adjust the numbers allowed to go legally and those doing so illegally will have to drop.

I agree completely.

[Zeebadee]

Some really great reasoning here. We can put a stop to all illegal immigration by simply making all immigration legal. By that logic, we can put a stop to all robberies by simply making stealing legal. Murder?? Make all killings legal and there will be no more murders. Of course, the problems caused by massive unrestricted immigration will remain, but hey, it won't be the illegals that are causing them anymore.

[bishop]

a felony's definitely a bit harsh, although i do not hold illegal immigrants' desires above our sovereign right to have control over our borders.. there are definitely more effective ways to combat illegal immigration imo.. rather than going after the poor people looking for work/money, how about going after the rich bastards who exploit their labor? (and i do support the idea of a wall and increased border security.)

[rmnunez]

Zee, if you've noticed "massive unrestricted immigration" is not held back by the current restrictions, why do you think there would be more immigrants if the restrictions were lower? I think as many go as there are jobs for them, a small fraction are admitted lawfully and the rest are undocumenteds. If visas were easier to get the same jobs would get filled, just that more of them by lawfully admitted immigrants. The notion easier access to a visa will mean millions more will go there to just lie around waiting for Welfare checks has nothing to support it, they go to work, they need money for their families back home.

[bishop]

i'd love to see an effective barrier erected so that instead of these people coming into our country and (essentially) stealing taxpayer dollars, they would remain in mexico and cause social/political change in their own country.. mexico's problems should not be permitted to be dumped on us - regardless of miscreant interests who look to exploit illegal immigrants..

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Zeebadee Some really great reasoning here. We can put a stop to all illegal immigration by simply making all immigration legal. By that logic, we can put a stop to all robberies by simply making stealing legal.

Um, no... it would still be robbery.

Quote by: Zeebadee Of course, the problems caused by massive unrestricted immigration will remain, but hey, it won't be the illegals that are causing them anymore.

What "problems" are those?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Zee, if you've noticed "massive unrestricted immigration" is not held back by the current restrictions, why do you think there would be more immigrants if the restrictions were lower?

Of course current restrictions aren't working. That's the problem. You want to solve the problem by eliminating the restrictions instead of establishing restrictions that actually are enforced.

Quote by: rmnunez I think as many go as there are jobs for them, a small fraction are admitted lawfully and the rest are undocumenteds. If visas were easier to get the same jobs would get filled, just that more of them by lawfully admitted immigrants.

You yourself posted a link that claims a 92% employment rate, if I remember correctly. Doesn't that imply that there are more workers than jobs? They aren't paid enough to offset the costs of the social programs that subsidize them, how will those wages go up if we allow more cheap labor in??

Quote by: rmnunez The notion easier access to a visa will mean millions more will go there to just lie around waiting for Welfare checks has nothing to support it, they go to work, they need money for their families back home.

With unrestricted immigration, why would they be sending money back home?? Why wouldn't they bring their families with them? There are many federal, state, and local agencies that would use taxpayer money to feed them, house them, provide them free medical care, and educate their kids for free. It wouldn't just be from Mexico that they'd come either. Starving in Somalia?? No problem. If you can get to the U.S. we'll take care of you. No immigration quotas here, come one, come all! If life on our welfare system is better than what they have now, why would they stay home??

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman Um, no... it would still be robbery. What "problems" are those?

Geez.... ok, we can put a stop to all robberies by making robbery legal then.

And Nunez and I (and others) have been all through those "problems" in great depth. I'm not going to start all over again with you. Just look back at some of the immigration threads and see if you can find some of them.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: Zeebadee Geez.... ok, we can put a stop to all robberies by making robbery legal then.

You wouldn't stop it, you'd just call it "taxes" instead.

[tinybear]

Isn't being in the US illegally already a crime? I've always been under the impression it is. And what about employing illegal immigrants? Isn't that a crime too?

[RickSp]

Quote by: Morgan_Freeman How do you equate a desire to have a legal process for immigration, and to not have anyone wantonly defy that process, "ugly xenophobic racism"?

The word "legal" is phony. Because there is a law forbidding immigrants from crossing our borders doesn't make the law good or just. It was once illegal to teach blacks to read or write. One might refer to that as "a desire to have a legal process for education".

The current laws don't work. There are people who desire to work and those who desire to hire them and the only impediment is the border between them. The proposed legislation makes crossing that border a felonly - on par with armed robbery or murder and makes anyone who assists the these immigrants in any way to be criminals. You may not consider that draconian. I do.

Perhaps we should tear the plaque off the Statue of Liberty - the one thats says "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...." and put up one that says "Keep Out. No Stinking Foreigners Allowed."

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: RickSp It was once illegal to teach blacks to read or write.

Perhaps you're forgetting why it was that many blacks were brought to this country. Shall we go down the same path again by bringing in more cheap labor to be exploited?

Quote by: RickSp There are people who desire to work and those who desire to hire them ...

What you mean is that there are people who desire to work and those who desire to hire them at $5 an hour with no benefits of any kind. Jack up the labor costs by paying a decent, liveable wage and see what immigrant unemployment rates go to. Raise wages to a point where they can afford a decent place to live, pay taxes and pay for car and health insurance and see how many Americans take the jobs.

Quote by: RickSp Perhaps we should tear the plaque off the Statue of Liberty - the one thats says "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free...." and put up one that says "Keep Out. No Stinking Foreigners Allowed."

A typical bullshit argument. Why are you limiting our choices to one extreme or the other? Why do we have to either let them all in or none of them in? What exactly is wrong with a regulated, orderly, and reasonable immigration policy?