Senate permits national debt to grow to $9 trillion

[Sean]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/03/....ap/index.html

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Senate voted Thursday to allow the national debt to swell to nearly $9 trillion, preventing a first-ever default on U.S. Treasury notes. The bill passed by a 52-48 vote. The increase to $9 trillion represents about $30,000 for every man, woman and child in the United States. The bill now goes to President Bush for his signature. The measure allows the government to pay for the war in Iraq and finance Medicare and other big federal programs without raising taxes. It passed hours before the House was expected to approve another $91 billion to fund the war in Iraq and provide more aid to hurricane victims. The partisan vote also came as the Senate continued debate on a $2.8 trillion budget blueprint for the upcoming fiscal year that would produce a $359 billion deficit for the fiscal year beginning October 1. The debt limit will increase by $781 billion. It's the fourth such move -- increasing the debt limit by a total of $3 trillion -- since Bush took office five years ago.

[jose]

Too deep in debt? Just borrow more! It's not like they have to pay it back. The slaves will get stuck with the bill. And their children. and their children's children.
And not just in taxes paid in for no services coming back. The increased number of dollars drives down their worth. and makes the basic necessities of life more expensive.

So, what are you going to do? Allow yourself to get sucked down into the hopeless black hole of debt the government created without our consent, or is it time to quit pouring good money after bad and let the government collapse, taking its bad debts with it?

I am addressing this to kids who have just or are about to turn 21. Don't let anyone fool you that you agreed to these debts you are being handed and told you must spend your life paying. You never voted for the previous governments that ran up this 9 trillion (That's $31,000 plus accruing interest for each and every one of you) debt. Nobody has your signature on a contract saying, "Yes, I agree to make payments on that $31,000".

Politicians ran up that debt without our consent. They can pay it without our help.
from WRH
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

[jose]

Today the US is the world’s largest debtor. The US savings rate is negative. American home owners have consumed most of the equity in their houses. In short, the federal government and many consumers are borrowing just to try keeping their head above water.
Indeed, it truly is “economic suicide”, but it’s even worse than that. It’s also monetary homicide. The dollar as we know it is being killed, poisoned by debt from the hand of the federal government with its accomplices in the Federal Reserve and the banking system. So far it’s been a slow death, with few people watching, but that’s about to change. With the horrific new amounts of debt being injected into the dollar’s weary remains, its death is not far off.

http://news.goldseek.com/JamesTurk/1142438460.php

[bishop]

very good article jose..

while i agree with its basic premise, there is one caveat worth noting.. countries, particularly those in east asia, are awash with idle cash - denominated in dollars.. should the dollar collapse, they will be just as broke as us especially since dollars account for the vast majority of their banks' reserves. also, east asian countries derive their income through exporting manufactured goods and their economies depend on a situation where the dollar is worth more than their domestic currencies.. when the dollar depreciates versus their currencies, their GDP slows, threatening a recession.


it can be, and has been argued that foreign holders of u.s. debt have at least as much to lose if the dollar should fail. a true currency crisis would not just be an american problem - but a global problem... history has shown, that when such crises occur, and when responsible leaders cannot come to equitable solutions - the end result has been war. only after the war's conclusion did world leaders come together to correct the situation.

[SteveA]

I've got a solution for the problem of national debt. Why don't they print up a bill that has an infinity sign for the denomination and then they don't need to waste time voting to increase the limits. They can just show people this infinity bill and "buy" whatever they want with it. You could pay off the debt that way and use it for Medicare and Social Security ... it would solve everything - no more currency needed for anything as there'd be an infinite supply of it!!!

Why haven't people thought of this before ... or have they?

[bishop]

heh... that should be in the next edition of the onion...

seriously, though... the situation's pretty grim imo.. even if we were to buy gold, supposedly to protect ourselves because it's a time-tested commodity that holds value - we'd all still be fucked deep in the ass if the dollar were to crumble. there's little we can do to escape the inevitable as far as i can tell.. even with something like gold, prices would still be so high that all of our savings (for those of us who have meaningful savings) would be eaten up in a couple weeks/months..

at least the situation would be so grim that a revolution would be all but inevitable.

[Boetie]

I forgot who the poster was that wrote a post on the pay as you go rule.

This past Tuesday, March 14th, the Senate Republicans voted against reinstating the pay as you go rule.

On the same day in my local paper it was annouced that Senior citizens will no longer receive powder milk and other food items.

I also read that the hospitals have rejected the privatized supplemental Medicare insurance. The hospitals will deal only with the government. This left 22,000 Senior Citizens that have bought the supplemental out in the cold.

The reason the hospitals rejected it, is because they got burned a couple of years ago. A lot of the privatizers dropped a lot of Senior Citizens from the plan, thus stiffing the Senior Citizens and the hospital.

Gotta love that compassion

But that pay as you go post on a different thread was a good post.

[bishop]

that was me...

i hope every party in opposition to the republicans nails them to the cross because of that vote.. these republican fools in congress shoved them too far up bush's ass for the country's good.. they are equally responsible for the situation we're currently in.

you know, a lot of these republicans have sworn on the bible to cut taxes at every given opportunity and to resist tax increases in the same way..

on a tangent, i wonder if we'll see a repeat of bush/dukakis in 2008..

[Boetie]

bishop,

It pissed me off that the Senate Republicans voted against the pay as you go rule.

Your post and the pay as you go rule made more sense than this cut ones own throat the Republicans have in mind for this country.

[Zeebadee]

An older article, but just as valid now as it was then.

"The long-term economic health of the United States is threatened by $53 trillion in government debts and liabilities that start to come due in four years when baby boomers begin to retire."
<snip>

"A USA TODAY analysis found that the nation's hidden debt — Americans' obligation today as taxpayers — is more than five times the $9.5 trillion they owe on mortgages, car loans, credit cards and other personal debt.

This hidden debt equals $473,456 per household, dwarfing the $84,454 each household owes in personal debt.

The $53 trillion is what federal, state and local governments need immediately — stashed away, earning interest, beyond the $3 trillion in taxes collected last year — to repay debts and honor future benefits promised under Medicare, Social Security and government pensions. And like an unpaid credit card balance accumulating interest, the problem grows by more than $1 trillion every year that action to pay down the debt is delayed. "

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...bt-cover_x.htm

[Osborn F Enready]

And why aren't these people being marched out of office at gunpoint yet, to await trial?

[SteveA]

Quote by: bishop heh... that should be in the next edition of the onion... seriously, though... the situation's pretty grim imo.. even if we were to buy gold, supposedly to protect ourselves because it's a time-tested commodity that holds value - we'd all still be fucked deep in the ass if the dollar were to crumble. there's little we can do to escape the inevitable as far as i can tell.. even with something like gold, prices would still be so high that all of our savings (for those of us who have meaningful savings) would be eaten up in a couple weeks/months.. at least the situation would be so grim that a revolution would be all but inevitable.

There's no way to undo the damage done. You can't magically change paper into something it's not and even propping up the dollar won't fix it long term. Competing currencies is the way to go.

[bishop]

given the alternatives, yeah, i agree...

but, i don't think that would do much good either. the euro's the likely candidate as of now.. one big problem with the euro is that many EU states have much higher debt-to-GDP ratios than we have.. and big EU powers like france have ratios very similar to our own (approx. 70% of GDP). while the amount of debt we have is infinately larger than theirs, so too is our economy..

and, these EU states also fill their reserves with dollars and use this to back the loans they and their commercial banks dole out.. definitely a precarious situation for them if the dollar should collapse - not to mention how it would destroy their economy..

oil is the only commodity that has any true value in today's world imo.. precious metals are nice and all, but in the event of a crisis, people are going to want oil, food and water... so, at the end of the day, the currency/commodity metal used to price oil is what people ought to use. (this raises the specter, again, that we invaded iraq in order to prevent saddam from pricing oil in euros.)

[tman_ndsu08]

Some of you guys act like debt is the worst thing ever.


This is nothing but a magic show.


Other countries buy our debt so that our people buy all the fancy crap they make.


It's just a big circle. They can't afford to not buy our debt just like we couldn't feel like Americans if we don't buy crap all th time.

[bishop]

you know tman... you must have that response saved on file somewhere, because it's the ONLY thing you ever say whenever something about our currency/debt/deficits is being discussed.... quite frankly, your argument is completely shallow and is devoid of any real thinking.

you should read jose's article (the 2nd article)... this "big circle" is unsustainable in the long-run.. rather than point out present-day realities that we all know about, try thinking about what the situation will look like 30-50 years from now when 50% of all federal spending goes towards servicing our debt - while social security's and medicare's deficits are bursting at the seams..

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: bishop this "big circle" is unsustainable in the long-run..

Yes.

So?

When it stops working, all that will happen is something changes. Change is good.

I hope they don't change a damn thing as far as the debt goes. Hell, speed it up. I want to be alive when the thing comes crashing down.

try thinking about what the situation will look like 30-50 years from now when 50% of all federal spending goes towards servicing our debt - while social security's and medicare's deficits are bursting at the seams..

Hopefully, big changes will come. The end of social security and medicare would be a nice start.

[Sandy]

Does anyone know how the breakdown was recorded on this massive expenditure? My Senator is up for reelection in November and I want to know how he voted.

[Rainbow]

How do you know U.S. is going to pay all the debts back, guys ?
You come up with an assumption that U.S. should.
How do you know that U.S. is going to comply with your assumptions, guys ?

Look far ahead, and you will have all the answers.

[bishop]

Quote by: Sandy Does anyone know how the breakdown was recorded on this massive expenditure? My Senator is up for reelection in November and I want to know how he voted.

could you restate the question? i don't exactly understand you...

if you meant, who voted yes/no for this piece of legislation, here's the vote summary from the senate:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00054

i couldn't find the bill that the house voted on..

one thing worth noting, is that this is the 4th increase in the debt ceiling since bush has been in office.. it'd be interesting to see the full list of increases and votes, just to see who's full of shit when they start talking about fiscal responsibility... that's a big task for me right now.. maybe later.

[Osborn F Enready]

I say why don't we investigate the lists of who is actually ISSUING THE BILL, and see where all this money is ACTUALLY coming from?