The Soldiers Speak. Will President Bush Listen?

[Osborn F Enready]

Excellent thread Rick, and thank you for the link to the article.

I believe that CNN is doing a report this week on the disproportionate number of U.S. returning troops that are seeking mental counseling as compared to previous wars, conflicts and events. I have been reading a lot about U.S. soldier suicide rates in Iraq, and the whole issue is very depressing, but needs attention as most of us know.

I hope more Americans start to wake up to the length at which they have been sold out by this, and previous administrations.

[bishop]

man, if the readiness of the iraqi military were a stock, it'd be a day trader's dream.. one day it's up, the next day it's down, the next day it's up, etc...

this war is simply hopeless.. the only moderately convincing "argument" is the fear-mongering argument that gets americans worried about all the "what-ifs".. "what if iraq falls into civil war? what if al qaeda sets up bases in iraq? what if the shiites ally themselves with iran?" etc... we went into this war on lies and "what ifs", now these scumbag dead-enders want to keep us there with no argument beyond "what ifs"...

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: bishop man, if the readiness of the iraqi military were a stock, it'd be a day trader's dream.. one day it's up, the next day it's down, the next day it's up, etc...

What's really telling is this:

"The battalion, made up of 700 to 800 Iraqi Army soldiers, has repeatedly been offered by the U.S. as an example of the growing independence of the Iraqi military."

After three years of effort, we can't count on 700-800 fully trained soldiers??

[Protostar]

Quote by: dthmstr254 oh, so you are sure that Suddam was going to quit killing his citizens? you are sure that Suddam, who was unreliable at best, was going to uphold any treaty? if so, how can you be sure? he would still be alive and killing, and he would have killed more Iraqis than we could have imagined dying in collateral. what did you expect? you think removing a tyrant was going to be easy? check out the world wars or the Revolutionary war.go on a hunting trip. you think the bear is going to lay down its arms? :rolleyes:

How does Saddam killing Iraqis affect me as an American?

[bishop]

a couple hundred of them vs. 10,000+ fighters for al-sadr's army...

if you sniff hard enough, you just might be able to catch a whiff of all this "progress" that bush and his embattled band of bushbots have been singing about over the past several years.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: Protostar How does Saddam killing Iraqis affect me as an American?

setting my point up, what happens with an addiction? eventually, the body becomes more tolerant of it. this is known with drugs like morphine and heroin. the body makes its own morphine, and when the drug user takes morphine to get a high, the body quits creating the endogenous morphines (endorphins), and when the effects of the morphine wear off, the endorphin glands in the hypothalamus (don't quote me on the exact part of the body, just suffice with endorphin glands) are no longer creating endorphins, causing the user to long for more, and the more they take, the more it is needed to replace the endorphins, resulting in higher doses. this also works the same way in a psychological dependency. there are two types of dependencies, physical and psychological. physical is that the person doesn't want to go through the crash (withdrawal) after the high. psychological is where the person enjoys the high, they enjoy seeing the little people and the flying feeling, or the adrenaline rush. an addiction can be to almost anything, be it drugs to emotion to stress to killing. when the original rush from killing wears out, he wants to kill again. eventually, he becomes dependent psychologically. he becomes more tolerant of it, and kills more to get the same rush. eventually, he looks for more people to kill in a larger pool. where does he find more people to kill? (Exploring Psychology, Myers; Addictions & Grace, Gerald G May) in another nation.

[RickSp]

You didn't answer the question, dthmstr254. You seem to justify invading a country and slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians on the grounds that it will make us less tolerant of killing. Check the index of your psych book under "lunacy".

To recap, 80% off Iraqis oppose the occupation, 65% of all Americans think the war is going badly and 72% of the American soldiers fighting the war think we should pull out within a year's time. Oh, yes and the longer we stay the worse the situation gets. Sounds like it is time to leave.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: bishop soldiers always second-guess their orders. every ex-military person i've ever talked to says that one of the things soldiers do best is complain. and it wasn't like i suggested that all soldiers should have a say - i merely suggested that some of the lower level officers should have a say. private johnny walker still has to follow his orders. and given that our country has been in the business of empire building ever since ww2 and korea, i think the military ought to have a say in the decision making process.. doesn't mean that anyone is forced to listen to them, but their voices won't be censored/muted as they usually are. it just seems right imo.

I might be the only one looking at the situation this way, but I am convinced I'm right about it. Of course they have a right to complain but when people start asking them how they feel about the war they are in it implies people care about their answer enough that their complaints might be acted upon. This is something we don't need going through their minds and i feel that would cause more problems than they would address.
And although I would love to see Bush plunked down naked in the middle of Baghdad with only a pocket knife (with no pocket to put it in) I still don't want the military involved with policy. It's not their job. Once the military with its strict chain of command structure gets ANY power to make policy decisions we might as well move the whole country to South America because I see a few "Generalissimo's" on the horizon.
They can advise, of course, as they are supposed to, and we desperately need people in government smart enough to listen and heed that advice over the advice of slippery little bastards like Wolfowitz. But the military in its entirety is an employee of the people and NOT leaders. IMO, THAT part of the country ain't busted so the fixing should concentrate on the people who CREATE the wars

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: RickSp You didn't answer the question, dthmstr254. You seem to justify invading a country and slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians on the grounds that it will make us less tolerant of killing. Check the index of your psych book under "lunacy". To recap, 80% off Iraqis oppose the occupation, 65% of all Americans think the war is going badly and 72% of the American soldiers fighting the war think we should pull out within a year's time. Oh, yes and the longer we stay the worse the situation gets. Sounds like it is time to leave.

you might want to reread that and see who I was referring to. I meant Hussein if you didn't know.

[RickSp]

Quote by: dthmstr254 you might want to reread that and see who I was referring to. I meant Hussein if you didn't know.

Your implication remains absurd. You imply that we should launch a brutal invasion and kill tens of thousands in order to stop a dictator who has developed a tolerance for killing. And in doing so, what do we become but killers with a similar tolerance? Quoting bullshit psych rarely makes for good argument.

Bottom line what we are doing isn't working and our troops are smart enough to know it.

[dthmstr254]

Quote by: RickSp Your implication remains absurd. You imply that we should launch a brutal invasion and kill tens of thousands in order to stop a dictator who has developed a tolerance for killing. And in doing so, what do we become but killers with a similar tolerance? Quoting bullshit psych rarely makes for good argument. Bottom line what we are doing isn't working and our troops are smart enough to know it.

and when the tolerance develops, the addict takes a larger dosage. taking a larger dosage of killing means more killing.

[Matt W]

Quote by: dthmstr254 and when the tolerance develops, the addict takes a larger dosage. taking a larger dosage of killing means more killing.

This is ridiculous. By your analogy, the US was the 'pusher' when they urged Saddam into war with Iran & gave him the means to gas the Kurds.

[casual timmy]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Bush seems to give lip service to the troops as it is and doesn't show a lot of genuine concern for them. I doubt this will mean a damn thing to him. The first couple of thousand didn't.

How many hospitals have you visited lately?

In their defense, Cheney and Bush have visited many last I checked. Although, I believe it all to be just PR stunts. You know, build up moral and support for an endless war. Both Cheney and Bush have already disrespected the military by dodging their own active military calling when the time came.

I presume the President and the Vice President don't really care what the soldiers say in a public poll. They don't have the " intel " they do, who are they? Cannon Fodder. Plastic toys on a map that you can move around at will. Men trained to stop a Russian advance, now demoted to street beat policemen. Pathetic really.

But all of this is just history repeating itself. Long live the empire.