Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Scribbler1 · Jan 27, 2006, 12:05 am

Quote:

Quote by: Radioactive Man

The only "bright" side to this is that when Hamas sends the next guy to blow himself up on a bus full of kids, then it's a state action and an act of war.

If you can prove it or they admit it. Otherwise you have speculation only, which might be enough for George Bush to act on, but calmer heads may wait for proof.

So, how's Fallout Boy these days?

Milton Bradley · Jan 27, 2006, 03:06 am

This goes along with my prediction made about the time the invasion started, which was (I'll find the link in few minutes) that with Saddam out of the way, and the Sunni's not in control of travel, all of these like minded people will segregate into the factions they wish to be in. Not that this is particularly a bad thing, its only them exercising a little self determination, but the irony is that these are the people that Saddam was keeping down for "the man". These were the people under Saddam's thumb since he gained power.

Ceyaotl · Jan 27, 2006, 09:59 am

Quote:

Quote by: RickSp

This is exactly what Bush has been demanding - democracy in the Middle East. The old adage, be careful what you wish for, comes to mind.

Fatah deserved to lose. It was corrupt and did a lousy job governing the territories. Time will tell how Hamas will do in its stead. Until 1993 Fatah was also sworn to the destruction of Isreal. It will be interesting to see how Hamas and Isreal come to terms with each other.

I think President Bush said it best when he said that the Palestinian people were tired of the statuesque. The fact that Fatah blundered the vote of its people is no surprise. After seeing how Yasser Arafat lived and how much money his wife got while the people lived in huts and starved was a slap in the face. Fatah just got a taste of freedom and so did those that support Hamas. Hamas did nothing more than win the hearts and minds of the people and thus came out on top.

That fact that they are determined to wipe out the Israelis is a major road block this election may just be what the President was talking about. Now that they know they have no other choice but to work with the Israelis then now they can join the rest of the world in a road to peace. This may have hurried that process. When people are forced to talk to one another often times they find common ground.

Israel will not back down and I doubt Hamas as a government can take on Israel. No other Arab nation will step in as Israel has a 2,000 lb. bomb for them as well. If Iran steps in it is a good reason for Israel to strike the Nuke sites. So the glass is really half full in this case. Democracy is never a bad thing. Our own country was founded on a war and that is how democracies are born.

Hamas knows that if Israel pulls back behind the walls that they will only last for so long. Jews hire many Palestinians and they both really depend on one another. Jordan is tired of the weight the Palestinians have placed on their economy and no one else wants them in their country. They are truly a forgotten people. The other Arabs call them the Arab Jews. I hope that this is a new time for peace and I hope that they use this as an opportunity to build not destroy.

Osborn F Enready · Jan 27, 2006, 03:58 pm

Thank entangling alliances, an increase in terror sympathizers since the war in Iraq, and the overall encroachment of all societies in their quests for globalization.

We are seeing the beginning of a global movement towards fragmentation to smaller governments, due to overwhelmingly corrupt larger ones.

But hey, what do I know, right?

underbear1 · Jan 27, 2006, 04:57 pm

Think Bush is going to hard sell the wonders of spreading Democracy through the middle east in the State of the Union speech? Remember Hitler was elected as well, and didn't that turn out SWELL! Egypt, and Saudia Arabia would be ruled by Muslim extremists too, if they held Democratic elections. Like it or not, some minor dictators and benign monarchs are much more stable, in some countries than Democracy.

**Matt W** · Jan 27, 2006, 05:01 pm

I think it's severely hypocritical that the US & EU are muttering about 'not dealing with terrorists' when they've all had dealings with the IRA, ETA, etc....for Christs' sake, Sinn Fein were pretty much the guests of honour at the White House every St.Patricks' Day!

brien · Jan 27, 2006, 05:06 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Sean

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4650788.stm

GWB should quit trying to dictate his terms to other democratically elected leaders. It is none of the business of the US who is elected leader of the Palestinians. This is a issue for their neighbors whom it may affect. Let Israel make their decision on how to deal with the Palestinians independent of the influence of the US. The US needs to sit down and shut up.

brien · Jan 27, 2006, 05:16 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

I think it's severely hypocritical that the US & EU are muttering about 'not dealing with terrorists' when they've all had dealings with the IRA, ETA, etc....for Christs' sake, Sinn Fein were pretty much the guests of honour at the White House every St.Patricks' Day!

Hey wait a minute now. These guys are Anglos and Catholics and eat Corned Beef and Cabbage with Colcanon while tipping their glass of Guinesses to the resistance. :rolleyes: They're really not terrorists, now are they? After all they go to confession. They're westerners with blue eyes and white skin. I mean they're not really terrorists, correct? :eek:

At least not the kind that GWB and Tony want to hunt down. Besides, all Tony has to do is pull his occupying soldiers out of Northern Ireland and the problem would correct itself right?

**Matt W** · Jan 27, 2006, 05:19 pm

Indeed. In much the same way Iraq would sort itself out if the Coalition just upped & left right now....

brien · Jan 27, 2006, 05:35 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Matt W

Indeed. In much the same way Iraq would sort itself out if the Coalition just upped & left right now....

Would like to see it. see my edit below.

brien · Jan 27, 2006, 05:40 pm

[quote=brien]Would like to see it. In a gradual way so as not to foment a civil war leading to an Iraq worse off than when it was invaded. Same for Ireland. The Brits should bring a plan for disengagement as well. Ya think? Somehow I don't see this happening.

USERNAME · Jan 27, 2006, 07:01 pm

i have to admit that it was odd to watch democract vote in a terrorist group. whats next? bin laden as the new prime minister ofafghanistan?..

it just shows that democracy doesn't work everywhere.

Scribbler1 · Jan 27, 2006, 07:48 pm

Quote:

Quote by: USERNAME

i have to admit that it was odd to watch democract vote in a terrorist group. whats next? bin laden as the new prime minister ofafghanistan?..

it just shows that democracy doesn't work everywhere.

It barely works HERE and we've been working at it for over two centuries.

Simply voting is only a selection. It doesn't necessarily mean a democracy is forming.

bishop · Jan 27, 2006, 08:10 pm

sure seems like this is going to end up in a civil war between fatah and hamas...

i wonder how long it'll take before iraqi democracy ends up the same way..

Scribbler1 · Jan 27, 2006, 09:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: bishop

sure seems like this is going to end up in a civil war between fatah and hamas...

i wonder how long it'll take before iraqi democracy ends up the same way..

Watching the BBC news showed gunfire between Fatah supporters (loyalists) and Hamas.

The ink was barely dry on the election results.

bishop · Jan 27, 2006, 11:27 pm

gotta wonder if this election could've materialized differently had bush continued to pay attention to this issue and continue to support abbas.

i see hamas's victory as a definite loss for the peace process.. i'm at least happy to see that all parties are (so far at least) playing the wait and see game right now. hamas would be insane to try to attack israel now - i don't think the israelis have much patience left after following through with the gaza pullout. civil war seems to be the most likely outcome. i don't have much faith in the palestinians, and hamas and fatah both just seem like two sides of the same coin.

then, there's the alternative possibility that hamas may actually chill out and begin to take orders from hezbollah and iran.

this shit ain't over by a long-shot.

Scribbler1 · Jan 27, 2006, 11:36 pm

If the Palestinians attack Israel the Israelis might take a cue from the U.S. and attack them. Hell all their army has to do is walk across the border! One of the drawbacks in taking a chunk out of a country is when things get hot at the border they are SURROUNDED by their enemy.

And if Bush so much as looks at Israel funny all they will do is tell him they are doing EXACTLY what HE did, unilaterally invading and attacking for their own security. And Bush can't say a thing because they would have a better excuse to do that than we ever did.

underbear1 · Jan 28, 2006, 01:23 am

If Palestine attacks Israel, there will be two large craters where Gaza and the West Bank used to be.
Israel won't take any more shit.Iran might want to keep that in mind as well.

Scribbler1 · Jan 28, 2006, 10:33 am

Quote:

Quote by: underbear1

If Palestine attacks Israel, there will be two large craters where Gaza and the West Bank used to be.
Israel won't take any more shit.Iran might want to keep that in mind as well.

If that happened and Iran was smart it could work to their advantage. Right now, if Iran attacked Israel it would be alone. If Israel obliterated the Palestinians Iran could use that as a rallying point for the whole Arab world. If played properly it would be SEVERAL countries attacking Israel. It's likely Israel could still win if it used nuclear weapons but it could also start WW3.

Samildanach · Jan 31, 2006, 09:55 am

Im glad theres pretty much only desert in that part of the world otherwise I would have to object to the nuking for environmental reasons. :)

Jan 27, 2006, 03:58 pm	#24 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Thank entangling alliances, an increase in terror sympathizers since the war in Iraq, and the overall encroachment of all societies in their quests for globalization. We are seeing the beginning of a global movement towards fragmentation to smaller governments, due to overwhelmingly corrupt larger ones. But hey, what do I know, right? Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jan 27, 2006, 05:01 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,107	I think it's severely hypocritical that the US & EU are muttering about 'not dealing with terrorists' when they've all had dealings with the IRA, ETA, etc....for Christs' sake, Sinn Fein were pretty much the guests of honour at the White House every St.Patricks' Day! I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jan 27, 2006, 05:19 pm	#29 (permalink) (top)
Matt W Moderator Location: Reading, UK. Posts: 7,107	Indeed. In much the same way Iraq would sort itself out if the Coalition just upped & left right now.... I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered. -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

Jan 27, 2006, 05:40 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
brien Iceberg Location: Connecticut Posts: 5,703	[quote=brien]Would like to see it. In a gradual way so as not to foment a civil war leading to an Iraq worse off than when it was invaded. Same for Ireland. The Brits should bring a plan for disengagement as well. Ya think? Somehow I don't see this happening. Brien the Iceberg If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything. M.T.

Jan 27, 2006, 08:10 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	sure seems like this is going to end up in a civil war between fatah and hamas... i wonder how long it'll take before iraqi democracy ends up the same way.. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jan 27, 2006, 03:06 am	#22 (permalink) (top)
Milton Bradley BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320	This goes along with my prediction made about the time the invasion started, which was (I'll find the link in few minutes) that with Saddam out of the way, and the Sunni's not in control of travel, all of these like minded people will segregate into the factions they wish to be in. Not that this is particularly a bad thing, its only them exercising a little self determination, but the irony is that these are the people that Saddam was keeping down for "the man". These were the people under Saddam's thumb since he gained power.

Jan 27, 2006, 04:57 pm	#25 (permalink) (top)
underbear1 BANNED Posts: 2,630	Think Bush is going to hard sell the wonders of spreading Democracy through the middle east in the State of the Union speech? Remember Hitler was elected as well, and didn't that turn out SWELL! Egypt, and Saudia Arabia would be ruled by Muslim extremists too, if they held Democratic elections. Like it or not, some minor dictators and benign monarchs are much more stable, in some countries than Democracy.

Jan 27, 2006, 07:01 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
USERNAME Sedimentary Rock Posts: 1	i have to admit that it was odd to watch democract vote in a terrorist group. whats next? bin laden as the new prime minister ofafghanistan?.. it just shows that democracy doesn't work everywhere.

Jan 27, 2006, 11:27 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	gotta wonder if this election could've materialized differently had bush continued to pay attention to this issue and continue to support abbas. i see hamas's victory as a definite loss for the peace process.. i'm at least happy to see that all parties are (so far at least) playing the wait and see game right now. hamas would be insane to try to attack israel now - i don't think the israelis have much patience left after following through with the gaza pullout. civil war seems to be the most likely outcome. i don't have much faith in the palestinians, and hamas and fatah both just seem like two sides of the same coin. then, there's the alternative possibility that hamas may actually chill out and begin to take orders from hezbollah and iran. this shit ain't over by a long-shot. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jan 27, 2006, 11:36 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,796	If the Palestinians attack Israel the Israelis might take a cue from the U.S. and attack them. Hell all their army has to do is walk across the border! One of the drawbacks in taking a chunk out of a country is when things get hot at the border they are SURROUNDED by their enemy. And if Bush so much as looks at Israel funny all they will do is tell him they are doing EXACTLY what HE did, unilaterally invading and attacking for their own security. And Bush can't say a thing because they would have a better excuse to do that than we ever did.

Jan 28, 2006, 01:23 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
underbear1 BANNED Posts: 2,630	If Palestine attacks Israel, there will be two large craters where Gaza and the West Bank used to be. Israel won't take any more shit.Iran might want to keep that in mind as well.

Jan 31, 2006, 09:55 am	#40 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Im glad theres pretty much only desert in that part of the world otherwise I would have to object to the nuking for environmental reasons. :) I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)