SWAT team shoots "armed" 8th grader.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Does that apply to everything? We are supposed to take the law into our own hands? Always? Like how about if the president orders an assination of children in Fallujah Hospital. That was not in self defense, it was cold blooded murder of innocent people who are protected under Geneva Convention. Somebody could legally make a citizens arrest on the president, if it is resisted, lethal force could be used? Same goes for outlaw congressmen:

I can't disagree. The real question comes down to evaluation of the possibility of success vs the very high chance of death. We all have to make cost/benefit analyses of what we do, either consciously or subconsciously. I can consciously determine that the risk to reward ratio of attempting to arrest the president, by myself, is very high. That is the risk of doing so far outweighs the potential for reward.

I'm not willing to chance it.

On the other hand, if some individual were to kidnap my children and the police were doing nothing, that would be a very different situation. In a one on one situation with a criminal, the risk is hugely reduced compared to taking on the protection of the president of the United States.

Keith

I would like to note that this has gone way off topic. I'm not sure I can even stretch to bring this post back on topic so, perhaps, we should let things go from here and if you wish to discuss this further, you should start another thread.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Why have a law if it isnt enforcable?

So the NWO/Police State can decide who and when they persecute/torture?

Class warfare? Oh, ok

[lili462]

Quote by: Aequo http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060114/...hool_evacuated

All i can say is its the kids fault for bringing anything that even resembles a weapon to school. Hes in 8th grade so he is old enough to know better. Secondly after incidents like columbine kids should be smart enough not to do stupid stuff like this. The only the swat team should have done, instead of shooting the boy with a real weapon they should have atleast shot him with some sort of tranquilizer..for gods sake. But i can completley understand them shooting at him seeing how the boy painted the orange tip black...the orange tip is so people can know that its not a real weapon.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: lili All i can say is its the kids fault for bringing anything that even resembles a weapon to school. Hes in 8th grade so he is old enough to know better

But he was not old enough to understand the pain he was feeling. He needed counseling.

When you run out of gas, do you sell your car to a scrap yard? You could. Its yours to do with as you wish. A human being is more than a machine, even if it can break down.

Did anybody try to resolve this besides the idiot with a gun?

Quote by: lili Secondly after incidents like columbine kids should be smart enough not to do stupid stuff like this.

You obviously have not felt the kind of pain this kid was experiencing. He was not a danger to anyone and there were witnesses to this fact. The cops didnt want no stinking witnesses.

This is training for the masses. Mind control. We will kill you if you are not homogenous. You have to be white and pretty and be productive and republican and fake empathy and hate and go to church and applaud violence and compete to the extreme and worship the same god and cheer for your government, even when wrong to the point of genocide. Mass murder is good for g.w. bush but wrong for saddam hussein and charles manson. ............. ad nauseum.
They teach us violence from the time we are kids then send us to church to learn "Thou shalt not kill" then tell us you have to hate categories of people and commit mass murder to steal resources. Its OK to steal billions of gallons of oil but its wrong to rob a gas station. Well, they say they are stealing the oil for us (even if the price went up), when actually they are stealing it for their cronies.

You cant understand how a kid could be so mixed up?

Its a screwed up world that a kid has to figure out. But its unfigurable-outable. Because of all the LIES. But they tell us "You will go to hell for lying" one minute. Then the next minute your boss tells you you have to lie or be fired.

A lot of my psych problems were cleared right up when I read the 1st couple of pages of "The Road Less Travelled" by M Scott Peck. Who makes observations like these:

The whole course of human history may depend on a change of heart in one solitary and even humble individual - for it is in the solitary mind and soul of the individual that the battle between good and evil is waged and ultimately won or lost. M. Scott Peck We cannot solve life's problems except by solving them. M. Scott Peck We must be willing to fail and to appreciate the truth that often "Life is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived." M. Scott Peck Whenever we seek to avoid the responsibility for our own behavior, we do so by attempting to give that responsibility to some other individual or organization or entity. But this means we then give away our power to that entity. M. Scott Peck You cannot truly listen to anyone and do anything else at the same time. M. Scott Peck

Did anybody try to listen, really truly listen to Christopher Penley?

Maybe this:

sould be required reading for the despondant.

Were the authorities "engaging the enemy" or
Ultimately society is not responsible for killing you, if you want to die. But if somebody reaches out for help, we should do everthing in our power to nudge them in the right direction. The right direction may not be what is right for everyone else, his problem may have been that he just did not fit in. In that case we should help him find whatever solution he requires. Too often we humans try to throw the wrong solution at problems. We try to fix spiritual maladies with physical or chemical solutions. Our doctors can be our worse enemies if they treat a symptom rather than the source of our problem.

Christopher Penley was a broken soul. Broken souls can be fixed, dead bodies cant. Are we a humane society if this is how we deal with a broken spirit?

My first spiritual awakening came in the form of a new attitude toward life. Acceptance. I was going to die refusing to accept this that and the other. I even refused to accept that I was an alcoholic and an addict. Everybody else had no trouble accepting this fact about me. Just because I couldnt bear life unless I was stoned or drunk...... Just because my problem was my solution and my solution was a huge problem .... but what if reality was more painful than the oblivion I could achieve with my solution. Death was looking like the next indicated step. Was I correct? It seemed correct. Fortunately, when I was just moments away from a permanent solution to what would otherwise be a temporal problem, some kid on a skateboard came along. I was trying to sleep on a table in front of taco bell. The kid told me they might be able to help me at this mens recovery home down the street. Then I tried to score some more free meth from this chick that ALWAYS had dope. She didnt want to give me anymore because I was self mutilating. She suggested I look into that same place that the skateboard kid told me about. Pretty bad when your "connect" tells you you need help. Then my old boss suggested going to the same place. I took the subtle hint. I checked in and started taking their suggestions. I have had a single drink or drug since that day. Aug 11, 1994. Thank God. Thank Gods messengers. And thank you to those who didnt kill me, no matter how strong a case I presented. I would go into bars an call out the biggest and baddest MF in the place tell him I had sex with his mother, and that I would wait outside for him. He didnt show up, maybe he thought it was an ambush.....
Dang is this a long post or what? I am gonna just shut up for a while.

[gr8fuldaniel]

I hated my guts. My hate was misdirected because I was a victim of my own belief system. I hated myself because of the lies I told myself. Lies like "I am inadequate to deal with this horrible life". Lies like "My penis isnt big enough" and "They are out to get me". Lies like "I am not smart enough" or "not tall enough" all of these things add up. In congress, they are the Big Lie. They were my undoing. When I was in that frame of mind I could not see the good, the worthyness of my existense. Philosophy itself would not fix it, I had read just about everything by Plato I enjoyed his humor. I hated Existentialism for its raw morbidity. Likewise I found no solice in Zoroastianism/Stoicism. I could not relate to narcissm, was always uncomfortable around Narcissism. Ego-centrics annoy me to no end. But thats their problem, mine was in self loathing even if "We are all but actors"

When I started reading that book in the last post (The Road)(I never have finished it, I learned PLENTY In the first paragraph)......this stood out like a sore thumb. First paragraph:

"Life is difficult. This is a great truth, one of the greatest truths. It is a great truth because once we truly see this truth, we transcend it. Once we truly know that life is difficult - once we truly understand and accept it - then life is no longer difficult. Because once it is accepted, the fact that life is difficult no longer matters."

I felt like I finally had the right tool for the job. I could finally transcend whatever came along. I could have some measure of peace.
One of my favorite poems is by Rudyard Kipling, "IF" :

IF If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you But make allowance for their doubting too, If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream--and not make dreams your master, If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!" If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much, If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son! --Rudyard Kipling

I just love that 1st line, "If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you"

Almost like he knew me!

[brien]

Quote by: Apeman81 If you don't know it, then don't snidely assert it. “Clearly premature”? How so. Was the child acting alone or in concert with another? Did the boy have any other deadly remote devices at his disposal? Did the boy have access to a window through which he could have shot others? What was on the other side of the wall of the room the kid was in? Could he have fired blindly into a classroom? Why, when confronted by an armed officer did the child choose to aim his weapon at the officer? The only thing that is clear is if this kid had not brought a weapon to school, had not brandished the weapon, had not pointed the weapon at the office, he would be alive today.

Ape:

I am not snidely asserting anything. If I want to assert something I will come plain out and write it. The bad business comes when others draw incorrect conclusions from what I write.

Premature, and clearly, because law enforcement CLEARLY didn't use all of the peaceful options at its resources to end this incident without deadly violence.

You wrote:Was the child acting alone or in concert with another?

Did the boy have any other deadly remote devices at his disposal?

Did the boy have access to a window through which he could have shot others?

What was on the other side of the wall of the room the kid was in? Could he have fired blindly into a classroom?

I say: Who knows? Maybe the authorities did or did not know.

They could have open the door to the lavatory and sent a police dog trained in explosives to determine if the kid had explosives. For that matter they could have sent the dog in to subdue the kid. They would have IMMEDIATELY found out that he was in possesion of a toy.

They could have waited the kid out with more time to determine if there was anyone acting with him. They could have employed a Psychiatrist negotiator to open negotiations with him.

If there were windows in the lavatory, why didn't he use them to escape rather than shoot others? And as far as shooting though a wall with the weapon he was reported to have by the witnesses, it wouldn't have shot through a wall. Particularly one made of concrete block as they normally are in schools.

Ape, you are making up all of these scenarios to justify a shooting that was premature and, in the opinions of many, clearly unjustified. I am satisfied that you are comfortable with the killing of this kid. I am not trying to convince you otherwise. I am merely attempting to show you there were probably many other options that the authorities could have used before using one that would finalize the situation before it required a violent and deadly end.

I think it is unfortunate that people believe this was the only option open to the authorities in this case. However, when all of the facts are presented to those the investigating the shooting, hopefully they will come to the conclusion that this was a needless and tragic end to a standoff that was unjustified and illadvised upon the part of those making the decisions in this case.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: brien Ape:I think it is unfortunate that people believe this was the only option open to the authorities in this case. However, when all of the facts are presented to those the investigating the shooting, hopefully they will come to the conclusion that this was a needless and tragic end to a standoff that was unjustified and illadvised upon the part of those making the decisions in this case.

I've never said it was the only option.

I say it was the only option that ensures no one but the criminal be put in undue danger.

The kid with the gun got what he earned.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Apeman81 The kid with the gun got what he earned.

And apparently what he WANTED!

[Ken Carman]

Unfortunate.

Sad.

But necessary, especially in these days post Columbine.

I am bothered by the phrasing, "Organs ready to be harvested."

I understand and don't object to the process. It may seema minor point, but the writer seemed to delight in making it sound ghoulish by using the quote.

[brien]

Quote by: Apeman81 I've never said it was the only option. .

Yes. But apparently the authorities thought so.

[RickSp]

And this morning a 7 year old was shot at her day care center by an 8 year old who brought the gun in in his backpack.

Child Shot After Boy Brings Gun To Day Care

If even 8 year olds are packing heat it may not be unreasonable to think that a 13 year old, with a pellet gun that looked like a real gun, might indeed have been lethal. The outcome was unquestionably tragic, but nevertheless understandable.

[brien]

Quote by: RickSp And this morning a 7 year old was shot at her day care center by an 8 year old who brought the gun in in his backpack. Child Shot After Boy Brings Gun To Day Care If even 8 year olds are packing heat it may not be unreasonable to think that a 13 year old, with a pellet gun that looked like a real gun, might indeed have been lethal. The outcome was unquestionably tragic, but nevertheless understandable.

I don't follow your link to the teen here. I agree that the outcome involving the teen was understandable, but it makes it no less irresponsible in the minds of people who feel that not enough was done to diffuse the situation peaceably.

As far as your link, the fact that a 7 year old can even get a firearm is proof positive that adults should be held criminally liable when they are so irresponsible as to allow a child to be in possesson of firearms. The parents of this child should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[RickSp]

Six years ago in Florida 14 year old Nathaniel Brazille brought a 25 caliber gun to school and killed his "favorite teacher." This morning an 8 year old in Virginia shot a 7 year old with a gun.



Chris Penley pointed this gun at a police officer. The outcome was tragic but the value of second guessing the actions of the police is not clear to me.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Rick If even 8 year olds are packing heat it may not be unreasonable to think that a 13 year old, with a pellet gun that looked like a real gun, might indeed have been lethal. The outcome was unquestionably tragic, but nevertheless understandable

Quote by: Rick The outcome was tragic but the value of second guessing the actions of the police is not clear to me.

We just had a gun go off in a back pack here in Sacramento area, yesterday. Who is giving these kids real guns all on the same day? The Reich-Wing gun grabbers wouldnt have a vested interest, would they?

The big picture?
An impeachment is brewing, but an E.O. has already given the power to declare National Emergency at the drop of a hat.

Check this old thread out: Declared State of Emergency in USA since 1933? Patrick Henrys baby

They want to grant police state powers. Absolute Power. They will do it incrementally.
The sick part is, they will even use little kids. I dont claim to know what goes on THAT ISNT REPORTED, but I know they dont have any interest in reporting whats really going on. The truth isnt conducive to their agenda.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Yesterday, 1st day back to school....

CBS GUN USED IN VACAVILLE SCHOOL SHOOTING WAS ALLEGEDLY STOLEN 01/24/06 3:45 PST VACAVILLE (BCN) A 14-year-old boy was booked into Solano County Juvenile Hall Monday after bringing an allegedly stolen gun to school and discharging it in the gym at the Will C. Wood High School, Vacaville police said Monday afternoon. A 15-year-old girl sustained a wound to her head when the gun went off while the boy was handling it inside his backpack, police said. According to police, it appears that the gun discharged accidentally. The bullet hit a wall and fragmented, striking the girl in the head. She was taken to VacaValley Hospital where she was treated and released, according to police. The boy was entering the gym for an assembly when the gun went off, according to John Aycock, superintendent of the Vacaville Unified School District. Monday was the first day of classes of the spring semester and at least 100 students were gathered in the gym at the time of the incident, police reported. According to police, the gun had been stolen from the locked gun safe of one of the boy's family members. Police are looking into whether the owner of the gun took appropriate precautions to keep the firearm safe.

Rumors float about a Zionist connection. I dont Know, it would be nice if the mainstream media would just report and let us decide.

[lili462]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel But he was not old enough to understand the pain he was feeling. He needed counseling. When you run out of gas, do you sell your car to a scrap yard? You could. Its yours to do with as you wish. A human being is more than a machine, even if it can break down. Did anybody try to resolve this besides the idiot with a gun? You obviously have not felt the kind of pain this kid was experiencing. He was not a danger to anyone and there were witnesses to this fact. The cops didnt want no stinking witnesses. This is training for the masses. Mind control. We will kill you if you are not homogenous. You have to be white and pretty and be productive and republican and fake empathy and hate and go to church and applaud violence and compete to the extreme and worship the same god and cheer for your government, even when wrong to the point of genocide. Mass murder is good for g.w. bush but wrong for saddam hussein and charles manson. ............. ad nauseum. They teach us violence from the time we are kids then send us to church to learn "Thou shalt not kill" then tell us you have to hate categories of people and commit mass murder to steal resources. Its OK to steal billions of gallons of oil but its wrong to rob a gas station. Well, they say they are stealing the oil for us (even if the price went up), when actually they are stealing it for their cronies. You cant understand how a kid could be so mixed up? Its a screwed up world that a kid has to figure out. But its unfigurable-outable. Because of all the LIES. But they tell us "You will go to hell for lying" one minute. Then the next minute your boss tells you you have to lie or be fired. A lot of my psych problems were cleared right up when I read the 1st couple of pages of "The Road Less Travelled" by M Scott Peck. Who makes observations like these: Did anybody try to listen, really truly listen to Christopher Penley? Maybe this: sould be required reading for the despondant. Were the authorities "engaging the enemy" or Ultimately society is not responsible for killing you, if you want to die. But if somebody reaches out for help, we should do everthing in our power to nudge them in the right direction. The right direction may not be what is right for everyone else, his problem may have been that he just did not fit in. In that case we should help him find whatever solution he requires. Too often we humans try to throw the wrong solution at problems. We try to fix spiritual maladies with physical or chemical solutions. Our doctors can be our worse enemies if they treat a symptom rather than the source of our problem. Christopher Penley was a broken soul. Broken souls can be fixed, dead bodies cant. Are we a humane society if this is how we deal with a broken spirit? My first spiritual awakening came in the form of a new attitude toward life. Acceptance. I was going to die refusing to accept this that and the other. I even refused to accept that I was an alcoholic and an addict. Everybody else had no trouble accepting this fact about me. Just because I couldnt bear life unless I was stoned or drunk...... Just because my problem was my solution and my solution was a huge problem .... but what if reality was more painful than the oblivion I could achieve with my solution. Death was looking like the next indicated step. Was I correct? It seemed correct. Fortunately, when I was just moments away from a permanent solution to what would otherwise be a temporal problem, some kid on a skateboard came along. I was trying to sleep on a table in front of taco bell. The kid told me they might be able to help me at this mens recovery home down the street. Then I tried to score some more free meth from this chick that ALWAYS had dope. She didnt want to give me anymore because I was self mutilating. She suggested I look into that same place that the skateboard kid told me about. Pretty bad when your "connect" tells you you need help. Then my old boss suggested going to the same place. I took the subtle hint. I checked in and started taking their suggestions. I have had a single drink or drug since that day. Aug 11, 1994. Thank God. Thank Gods messengers. And thank you to those who didnt kill me, no matter how strong a case I presented. I would go into bars an call out the biggest and baddest MF in the place tell him I had sex with his mother, and that I would wait outside for him. He didnt show up, maybe he thought it was an ambush..... Dang is this a long post or what? I am gonna just shut up for a while.

i didnt see what half of what you said had to do with justifying an 8th grader bringing a gun to school, nor did i see it in your post below this. For your information, i have felt pain before and i'm sure a majority of the people on this board have, its life...deal with it. If this boy was having problems he should have done the right thing and talked to someone...his parents, a close family member..uh whos that person that a school hires to talk to people....the guidance counselor. Due to the age of the boy, there is no excuse why he should have brought a fake gun to school, disguised as a real gun. I dont know much about the boy or the outcome of this incident, but i would agree that instead of jailing the boy that he needs serious help... When a kid brings a gun to school its because they are angry at someone and want to cause harm or its because they are plain stupid. I dont blame anyone for that boy getting shot,IT LOOKED LIKE A REAL GUN. were they supposed to take a chance..even though it wasnt a real gun, Heck no! There have been to many incidents like these in americas schools. so my advice to school children who think its a wise idea to take a gun (fake or real) to school....don't. Your either going to get in trouble legally or you'll have to face the bad consequences and get shot like this boy did.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: lili462 i didnt see what half of what you said had to do with justifying an 8th grader bringing a gun to school, ...

I am not defending this kids solution for his problems. I am trying to find a better solution. Its hard to see and act sanely when we are in severe emotional pain. Corporal punishment is not the right prescription. We can do better as a civilized society.

For your information, i have felt pain before and i'm sure a majority of the people on this board have, its life

Maybe not to the same degree, I feel like I can relate. I have had one of my best friends come over and sit next to me. He calmly opened a new package of razor blades, took one and started slicing his arm open. About 5 quick strokes. I watched the wounds open wide and spray blood all over the place.
I didnt have time to ask what was going on. I took off my shirt and wrapped it tight and yelled at somebody to call his dad (who happened to be a doctor). His life was saved, but he was in and out of treatment for years. He succeded in ending his life about 5 years later. I hope you found peace by now, Marty.

...deal with it

Thats just it. Our solution are not so simplistic. Our answers are simple, but it takes the proper shaman. That agent may be hard to find, and it doesnt show up WHEN we think it should. Its hard to hear when our problem is screaming for relief. Some are better equipped to "deal with it". Others that are not? Should they just be slaughtered and "harvested for parts" I think not.

If this boy was having problems he should have done the right thing and talked to someone...his parents, a close family member..uh whos that person that a school hires to talk to people....the guidance counselor.

Maybe he did. Maybe the next person had the answer he needed. Maybe the cop could have helped. The one who shot him instead.

Due to the age of the boy, there is no excuse why he should have brought a fake gun to school, disguised as a real gun.

The age of the boy tells me he was going through one of the hardest transitions imaginable. He was coming of age AND having girl trouble. A formula for disaster. It doesnt really matter what age, though. Not if you havent learned how to deal with life. On lifes terms. Not just how we think it should be. We have serious problems in this society. Telling us crap like "You can have anything if you only believe", when this doesnt pan out, there isnt any hope left. He convicted himself as a failure, and if you dont know any better, you cant see the other side of it. The escape!

I dont know much about the boy or the outcome of this incident, but i would agree that instead of jailing the boy that he needs serious help...

Too late. They executed him. The cops murdered him. Permanent solution.

When a kid brings a gun to school its because they are angry at someone and want to cause harm or its because they are plain stupid

You need to read the story. The kids' gun was a fake and he KNEW the gun was fake.

I dont blame anyone for that boy getting shot,IT LOOKED LIKE A REAL GUN.

There are alternatives to lethal force. He had no hostage and he was cornered in a bathroom. He did not have to die. Lethal force is ok for a horse with a broken leg, not a despondant child.

were they supposed to take a chance..even though it wasnt a real gun, Heck no!

Take a chance? Yes, they could have disarmed him with tear gas and a baton whaen he came running out.

There have been to many incidents like these in americas schools. so my advice to school children who think its a wise idea to take a gun (fake or real) to school....don't. Your either going to get in trouble legally or you'll have to face the bad consequences and get shot like this boy did.

That was the idea he wanted to be shot. I just think we should try to help sick people. Not murder them.