SWAT team shoots "armed" 8th grader.

[brien]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready If I am not mistaken, that is a replica "Model 59" Smith and Wesson, by Daisy's "Soft-Air" Division. It fires a 6mm plastic pellet, that is harmless unless shot into the exposed eye. The airguns are sold as "Realistic replicas" of real guns, you must be 18 to buy them (that I know of in this area) and they are absolutely realistic. I had one exactly like that when I was about 15 years old, and the slide functioned just like the real gun, and the pellets fire out of simulated plastic 9mm rounds that look like the actual bullet, but actually serve as a part of the air chamber and barrel, and when fired, the "simulated plastic 9mm round" ejects from the gun as the slide cycles, as the pellet leaves the barrel. To even the most critical critics, these pellet guns look identical and could easily be mistaken for the real guns they replicate. Most of them like the one pictured, cost between $39.00 and $59.00 retail, and they serve as excellent training tools, introductory examples to firearms for kids, as well as affordable means for gun hobbyists to collect rare and hard to find replicas of arms they can't legally own, or afford. As usual though, this child was intent on suicide, so it wouldn't have mattered if it was a stick in his pocket, he was intent on acheiving one thing, and that was death. It is a shame the gun and gun hobby industry will once again be villified because this kids parents were shitty, and provided him something he obviously wasn't mature, or stable enough, to be trusted with. Maybe if the parents would have raised the kid better, he would still be alive today. I feel for the officer who had to shoot him, and I feel he had to.

I feel for everyone involved.

First. I wasn't there so I can't make definitve judgements. That said, I would consider the following.

There is one other option I would have explored had I been the C.O.

I would have told the kid we would wait him out. Where was he going anyway? I would have told him we were going to Mc Donalds and asked him what he wanted to eat. I would have used a mini cam to ascertain where in the lavatory he was positioned. This done, I would have dumped a good dose of tear gas through the vents or in the windows. Then, and only then, would I have stormed the bathroom with armed officers in flak jackets and gas masks. The kid probably would have melted immediately and been on the floor coughing his lungs out not being able to see anything. Where's the ol stun gun when you need it?

In any event, there may have been a rush to judgement here before all of the opportunities or solutions were fully explored. But I can only speculate, like most others.

[thatoneguy00]

Daniel,

Ok dude let me make something real clear to you, I do not appreciate the accusations that I think all kids who play with toy guns should be killed. That is sick and demented!! The swat team in this situation was told kid with gun in school, lives in danger.k? Primary objective, take care of the situation.k? In ana attempt to solve things in a safe fashion the kid pointed the gun at him, so lets freeze this moment. The only thing you know as a cop is you got what appears to be a 9mm beretta pointed at you, so now its either him or you, and he is the one who caused this whole situation. you are here to keep this from going any further. ACTION, BAM you pull the trigger! Objective complete.

[gr8fuldaniel]

In this Brave New Florida, they recently passed more liberal laws for self defense. Letting your own fear rather than facts decide whether lethal force is necessary:

washington post Fla. Gun Law to Expand Leeway for Self-Defense NRA to Promote Idea in Other States By Manuel Roig-Franzia Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, April 26, 2005; Page A01 MIAMI -- It is either a Wild West revival, a return to the days of "shoot first and ask questions later," or a triumph for the "Castle Doctrine" -- the notion that enemies invade personal space at their peril. Such dueling rhetoric marked the debate over a measure that Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (R) could sign as early as Tuesday. The legislation passed so emphatically that National Rifle Association backers plan to take it to statehouses across the nation, including Virginia's, over the next year. The law will let Floridians "meet force with force," erasing the "duty to retreat" when they fear for their lives outside of their homes, in their cars or businesses, or on the street.

Pretty much makes murder legal, acceptable. Its the same kind of devaluation of humanity that precedes a genocide. Population control. How dark are you? It does matter. But in florida your vote doesnt matter if you have been devalued, graded by the white men who own the voting machine.

Happy Martin Luther King Day, Long live Dr King, Let Freedom Ring.

[brien]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel Remember just before xmas.......The guys wife was running behind him saying "Hes sick, he just wants off the plane" The cops said he claimed to have a bomb, but none of the passengers ever heard him say the "B" word. Prison Planet.

Not only what you say Dan, but consider this. I believe the guy was shot dead in the Jetway. They could have closed the door to the Jet after he entered the jetway, and pulled back away from it. The door to the terminal was already locked. This means the nutbag would have been trapped inside the jetway. They could have cleared the terminal and negotiated from there. But noooooooo, the cowboys all had to gun down their suspect before they even could make an informed decision. A certain rush to judgement with deadly consequences, in my judgement.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel you "believe"? Is your belief system based on facts? Thats not true. Do do it all the time. A sniper can take out a knee cap or the shooters arm. That doesnt look like the same language I remember. I will have to look around. It was in all the newspapers before. Now its not showing up in news search. Scrubbed? Big Brother is no stranger to censorship.

I found it on Google. The slightly altered version is here. A somewhat more histerical read.

http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/news/jebknew.htm

[gr8fuldaniel]

thatoneguy,

Notice anything fishy here? No Detectives? Only Gangbusters! Cops are not trained to diffuse a situation anymore? These guys arent any sharper than a school boy?

Mental note; Do not meet the cops in secluded area. No witnesses = Dirty cops

Quote by: brien There is one other option I would have explored had I been the C.O. I would have told the kid we would wait him out. Where was he going anyway? I would have told him we were going to Mc Donalds and asked him what he wanted to eat. I would have used a mini cam to ascertain where in the lavatory he was positioned. This done, I would have dumped a good dose of tear gas through the vents or in the windows. Then, and only then, would I have stormed the bathroom with armed offficers in flak jackets and gas masks. The kid probably would have melted immediately and been on the floor coughing his lungs out not being able to see anything. Where's the ol stun gun when you need it? In any event, there may have been a rush to judgement here, before all of the opportunities were fully explored. But I can only speculate, like most others.

BINGOYAHTZEETOUCHDOWN !

[lsbskins1]

As far as I'm concerned, not having all the facts at my disposal, it is equally plausible that this was a police fuck-up or an unavoidable tragedy.

Police are well aware of the suicide by cop phenomonen and should always be on the look out for it. It seems that that is what happened here. The absolute question is the "what did they know and when did they know it" question. It should come out in the end. Being well aware of the concept that in the average situation, not involving SWAT, Joe Officer should only fire his gun when he has determined that deadly force is necessary, I get and agree with that accessment. But this, at least on the surface, has the markings of being a horse of a different color. And before you go saying police NEVER shoot except to kill, please explain that footage on that FOX cop show where they shoot the gun right out of the suicidal man's hand. I've seen that footage at least twice myself. I have also seen film of cops tackling a dude who was waving a loaded shotgun around in a very threatening manner. If they prepare properly, there are usually options. But, again, at this point, we really don't know...

[Apeman81]

If I don't want to die, I don't point a gun at a group of officers with their guns drawn.

If I do want to die, I point a gun at a group of officers with their guns drawn.

If I want to go home to my wife and family after a 12 hour shift in uniform, I fire my weapon when a person points his weapon at me after failing to heed several commands to disarm.

If I don't want to go home to my wife and family after a 12 hour shift in uniform, I worry about what a board of inquiry may choose to believe about some person who points his weapon at me after failing to heed several commands to disarm, and hesitate that microsecond too long.

I'll take the board.

[gr8fuldaniel]

“As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression. In both instances there is a twilight where everything remains seemingly unchanged, and it is in such a twilight that we must be aware of the change in the air, however slight, lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness.”—Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

Investigations only get in the way of the agenda. Remember the one on one confrontation? The one kid who actually struggled with the murdered child?

but law enforcement officers did not question him until after the other teen had been shot.

Right! Cant have any facts getting in the way of our Execution!

That shootist had better reassigned to a desk until his motive is published. No "No Comment" is acceptable. I will allow that the killer cop is innocent until proven guilty (unlike those who they drag off to jail for a "No Blood For Oil" bumper sticker). But he needs to surrender his weapon until such proof is published for the citizenry.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I guess somebody is incompetant then. Because now we have the information that the A) parents told the cops it was a toy, and B) the student who felt the gun "pull apart" thought the gun was a toy.

If I recall, the story said the kid's parents said they "believed" it was a toy. Their guess isn't good enough and the kid was deliberately causing people to think it WAS real. It's the same as the other kid saying he thought it was a toy. In such a situation that simply is NOT good enough. Cops risk their lives just by putting on the uniform. You can't expect them to risk them further on anyones guess as to what kind of weapon it was.
The cop walks in and under the assumption the weapon was a pellet gun (pellet guns are not toys, BTW) he drops his guard. The kid put a REAL bullet in the cop's brain and we all read the story and say, gee that's too bad. I don't think they would want to take that kind of risk.

Overreaching government is no longer a thing of the future. They are moving into a new phase. They dont want our respect. They want us afraid. Mark my words. Prison Planet

That may be right, but we are discussing this ONE incident. In any event, I still refuse to believe the government is telling the cops to gun down teenagers and I also don't believe a cop would do that ANYWAY, even if told this is policy. I've known cops most of my life and I've never met one that I would characterize as that kind of animal. Remember, this is not the military. They CAN quit if they are given orders they think are immoral.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel But he needs to surrender his weapon until such proof is published for the citizenry.

I believe this is standard procedure in these cases.

[gr8fuldaniel]

If I recall, the story said the kid's parents said they "believed" it was a toy. Their guess isn't good enough and the kid was deliberately causing people to think it WAS real.

I still say they could have diffused the situation without lethal force. Nothing to that effect was reported.

I believe this is standard procedure in these cases.

I didnt hear about that either. The paper usually makes a note of that.

[Osborn F Enready]

Miles O'Brien already started villifying the replica gun companies and the notion of the guns themselves on CNN this morning.

In cases like this, I hate being right in predicting the future.

[bishop]

Quote by: shield772 you don't use less than lethal when they have lethal, that I thought would be plain, why do criminals have more right to protection than cops?

using rubber bullets would've most certainly stopped a 15 year old boy dead in his tracks.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I still say they could have diffused the situation without lethal force. Nothing to that effect was reported. I didnt hear about that either. The paper usually makes a note of that.

I find a LOT of things not, or under reported in my paper. I'm going to wait a while to see what happens that IS reported. At this point I think you are putting a little too much stock in preliminary reports from a flawed media.
And we may never know the real truth anyway. For now, I'm just looking at this as a tragedy that may or may not have been avoidable.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: bishop using rubber bullets would've most certainly stopped a 15 year old boy dead in his tracks.

How does an officer load a weapon before he strarts his shift?

1 rubber, 2 lead, another rubber and the rest lead?

Does he carry a special, rubber bullet magazine? How does he know when to load lead or rubber?

Does he ask the criminal to wait until he recharges his weapon with the state approved round?

If this kid's weapon had been real, and as the result of the police's attempt to use a non-lethal round in a lethal situation, an officer or a bystander had been shot, then where would we be?

The fact remains that we ask men and women to protect us from the varied and sundry dangers that arise in a world of unstable people. Lethality is best countered with lethality. Anything else puts the officer and the citizenry in danger.

[thatoneguy00]

very well put apeman, how are you to know what your going to encounter for the day. If you don't think anything bad is going to happen why not just leave your gun at the depastment and take your billy club instead.Anybody see the movie jodge dredd with sly stallone. THey never used guns, and then sly got pissed off and said there is only one way to put a stop to all the insanity and he grabbed a gun. You can only be nice for so long.

[brien]

Quote by: Apeman81 How does an officer load a weapon before he strarts his shift? 1 rubber, 2 lead, another rubber and the rest lead? Does he carry a special, rubber bullet magazine? How does he know when to load lead or rubber? Does he ask the criminal to wait until he recharges his weapon with the state approved round? If this kid's weapon had been real, and as the result of the police's attempt to use a non-lethal round in a lethal situation, an officer or a bystander had been shot, then where would we be? The fact remains that we ask men and women to protect us from the varied and sundry dangers that arise in a world of unstable people. Lethality is best countered with lethality. Anything else puts the officer and the citizenry in danger.

This is all irrelevant since the situation could have been diffused in a less violent manner. I pointed out how it could have been accomplished in a previous post. This young man did not deserve to die in this situation, whether he wanted to or not. The police had several options:

1) They could have waited him out. He was trapped in a lavatory.

2) They could have tear gassed him out.

3) They could have waited until he fell asleep after hours of exhaustive tension.

Bottom line is the police seemed to have rushed to judgement here. They used the last resort first and this is why they were wrong. If I was his father, I would sue the police for wrongful death, and probably win.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: brien This is all irrelevant since the situation could have been diffused in a less violent manner. I pointed out how it could have been accomplished in a previous post. This young man did not deserve to die in this situation, whether he wanted to or not. The police had several options: 1) They could have waited him out. He was trapped in a lavatory. 2) They could have tear gassed him out. 3) They could have waited until he fell asleep after hours of exhaustive tension. Bottom line is the police seemed to have rushed to judgement here. They used the last resort first and this is why they were wrong. If I was his father, I would sue the police for wrongful death, and probably win.

And every moment waited is another moment which the suspect may choose to launch adeadly attack against someone else.

How many officer's lives must be endangered?

This kid did this to himself. He is solely responsible.

[Matt W]

And every moment waited is another moment which the suspect may choose to launch adeadly attack against someone else.

Apeman81, did you honest-to-God read the circumstances? He was trapped in a lavatory. Tell, me, who's he going to kill, exactly?