SWAT team shoots "armed" 8th grader.

[Chris]

Quote by: shield772 Just a question not really trying to be argumentative but how many of you that think the cops should have done something else have ever had someone point a gun at you in anger? I have and let me tell you the last thing on my mind was how I could make this easier on him.

But like I am saying if he didnt enter the bathroom (knowing before hand he was possibly armed) he wouldn't have had to have a weapon pointed at him.

[gr8fuldaniel]

I have had a gun pointed at me in anger. I talked the guy into giving the gun to the bartender. It took about ten minutes. The longest 10 minutes of my life. But I am glad I didnt have to shove it into his neck. Very glad. That guy was a psycho, mentally retarded. But in Texas anybody can take a gun into a bar. On the condition that they check their guns with the barkeep until they leave.

Apparently they dont have negotiators in Florida. Bullitts are cheaper.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: |Chris| damn I dont remember that case. Was the poor guy just trying to catch a plane?

Remember just before xmas.......The guys wife was running behind him saying "Hes sick, he just wants off the plane" The cops said he claimed to have a bomb, but none of the passengers ever heard him say the "B" word.

Prison Planet.

[bishop]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I have had a gun pointed at me in anger. I talked the guy into giving the gun to the bartender. It took about ten minutes. The longest 10 minutes of my life. But I am glad I didnt have to shove it into his neck. Very glad. That guy was a psycho, mentally retarded. But in Texas anybody can take a gun into a bar. On the condition that they check their guns with the barkeep until they leave.

good story yo - and good work.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: shield772 Just a question not really trying to be argumentative but how many of you that think the cops should have done something else have ever had someone point a gun at you in anger? I have and let me tell you the last thing on my mind was how I could make this easier on him.

Why not shoot him in the leg instead? I would wager that the kid has not been shot before, and would thus not already know how to deal with the pain. After shooting him in the leg, he would go down, and either lower or drop his gun, at which point I can overpower him and take the gun away from him.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: |Chris| damn I dont remember that case. Was the poor guy just trying to catch a plane?

He was a naturalized US citizen (born in Costa Rica) and was going to fly home to Orlando for the holidays. Apparently he was also bipolar and had forgotten to take his medication. His wife tried to get him to remain calm, but he became increasingly agitated while on the plane (before it took off) and ultimately ended up jumping out of his seat and running out of the plane onto the jetway. At that point, federal air marshalls (in disguise, of course) chased after him and fatally shot him in the jetway.

What was it that Marx said about tragedy replayed as farce?

- Rob

[shield772]

Quote by: bishop does that excuse the cop(s) from an apparent failure to plan ahead? the cop could've had rubber bullets or a bean bag gun to subdue the child. i don't fault the cop for firing, i am criticizing the appalling lack of judgement concerning the use of lethal (instead of non-lethal) weapons..

you don't use less than lethal when they have lethal, that I thought would be plain, why do criminals have more right to protection than cops?

[shield772]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I have had a gun pointed at me in anger. I talked the guy into giving the gun to the bartender. It took about ten minutes. The longest 10 minutes of my life. But I am glad I didnt have to shove it into his neck. Very glad. That guy was a psycho, mentally retarded. But in Texas anybody can take a gun into a bar. On the condition that they check their guns with the barkeep until they leave. Apparently they dont have negotiators in Florida. Bullitts are cheaper.

They were negotiating with him and trying to talk him into putting the gun down, he was not responding I believe he said "I am gonna die or kill myself"

[shield772]

Quote by: Autolykos Why not shoot him in the leg instead? I would wager that the kid has not been shot before, and would thus not already know how to deal with the pain. After shooting him in the leg, he would go down, and either lower or drop his gun, at which point I can overpower him and take the gun away from him. - Rob

Because cops aren't trained to shoot to wound, wounded people can still shoot at you and officer safety is concern #1 criminal safety comes in a distant second

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: shield772 Because cops aren't trained to shoot to wound, wounded people can still shoot at you and officer safety is concern #1 criminal safety comes in a distant second

I would have to disagree with this. Given the rate of innocent bystanders shot by police I would have to put criminal safety third and bystander safety second. I can't believe that a cop would be less concerned about an innocent bystander than about an ALLEGED criminal.

Of course, "officer safety" IS far more important than the safety of the public in general.

Keith

[gr8fuldaniel]

They were negotiating with him and trying to talk him into putting the gun down, he was not responding I believe he said "I am gonna die or kill myself"

The cops didnt even talk to the kid who struggled with the murdered child.
He said the gun "pulled apart". I am sure he told the principal, and the principal told the cops? Why would the cops go into a situation uninformed? The principal must have grilled the kid before the cops got there. They just didnt want to "know" it was a toy. The cops could just say, we know its a toy, put it down or we will spray mace in your eyes, and taser you.

LINK Student told officials gun may not have been real By The Associated Press Originally posted on January 16, 2006 LONGWOOD — A student who grappled with a 15-year-old over a gun said he told school officials he was not sure the weapon was real when he felt it pull apart, but law enforcement officers did not question him until after the other teen had been shot.

Hey shield, why didnt they use tear gas and and a bat?
Why isnt this treated like a cry for help, like thousands of similar cases?


Florida has a prison planet agenda. I remember when jeb bush declared Marshall Law on Sept. 7, 2001. Was he armed with foreknowlege of 911 events? That he would be involved in 911 events in 4 days? Harboring a fugitive who was hiding behind children in a classroom for an alibi?

[thatoneguy00]

ok hold on here, I am reading everyones posts and it seems that no one is considering this kids intent, we know his intent was to harm. Now put yourself in the swat position. You are told MOVE IN MOVE IN!!!! so you move in, all you know is this kid has a weapon, after all these school shootings the thought of a kid having a fake gun just doesn't register. DROP YOUR WEAPON!!! you yell AND GET ON THE GROUND NOW MOVE IT !!! and this kid is holding what LOOKS like a 9mm but you have no time to think you have to react, solve the situation. DOWN NOW!! THe kid looks up, and mumbles I am gonna die or kill myself, and raises the weapon at you. What do you do
A. DROP YOUR WEAPON
B. RUN
C. CRY
or D. FIRE


what do you think?

[Apeman81]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel The cops didnt even talk to the kid who struggled with the murdered child. He said the gun "pulled apart". I am sure he told the principal, and the principal told the cops? Why would the cops go into a situation uninformed? The principal must have grilled the kid before the cops got there. They just didnt want to "know" it was a toy. The cops could just say, we know its a toy, put it down or we will spray mace in your eyes, and taser you. Hey shield, why didnt they use tear gas and and a bat? Why isnt this treated like a cry for help, like thousands of similar cases? Florida has a prison planet agenda. I remember when jeb bush declared Marshall Law on Sept. 7, 2001. Was he armed with foreknowlege of 911 events? That he would be involved in 911 events in 4 days? Harboring a fugitive who was hiding behind children in a classroom for an alibi?

Ever rack the slide on a Berretta 9mm? That would surely feel like its pulling apart.


Is this what you refer to when you assert Jeb Bush "declared marshall law'?

http://sun6.dms.state.fl.us/eog_new/...-09-07-01.html

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: thatoneguy I am reading everyones posts and it seems that no one is considering this kids intent, we know his intent was to harm

What do you mean, "we"? "WE" know he had a toy gun. Who was he going to hurt?

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: thatone all you know is this kid has a weapon

A pencil can be construed a "weapon"

[thatoneguy00]

We know it was a toy NOW, But not at the time. This kid was messed up, somethings not right with him, if he wouldn't have got caught it was only time before he snapped with a real gun. I am going to quote a funny comedian larry the cable guy on this one, If guns kill people then I can blame mispelled words on my pencil, that basically is a sarcastic way of saying its the person that is screwed up not the gun.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: shield I believe he said "I am gonna die or kill myself"

you "believe"? Is your belief system based on facts?

you don't use less than lethal when they have lethal

Thats not true. Do do it all the time. A sniper can take out a knee cap or the shooters arm.

Quote by: ape Is this what you refer to when you assert Jeb Bush "declared marshall law'? http://sun6.dms.state.fl.us/eog_new...1-09-07-01.html

That doesnt look like the same language I remember. I will have to look around. It was in all the newspapers before.
Now its not showing up in news search.
Scrubbed? Big Brother is no stranger to censorship.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: thatone We know it was a toy NOW, But not at the time.

I guess somebody is incompetant then. Because now we have the information that the
A) parents told the cops it was a toy, and
B) the student who felt the gun "pull apart" thought the gun was a toy.

Why would a cop go into that bathroom without being briefed first?

Quote by: thatone ....if he wouldn't have got caught it was only time before he snapped with a real gun.

The kid knew it was a toy. You are saying we should kill all kids that play with toy guns? Because they lead to real guns? That seems to be your rationale.

Overreaching government is no longer a thing of the future. They are moving into a new phase. They dont want our respect. They want us afraid. Mark my words.

Prison Planet

[Osborn F Enready]

Just to clarify here, quoting my original post in this thread:

As usual though, this child was intent on suicide, so it wouldn't have mattered if it was a stick in his pocket, he was intent on acheiving one thing, and that was death.

It is a shame the gun and gun hobby industry will once again be villified because this kids parents were shitty, and provided him something he obviously wasn't mature, or stable enough, to be trusted with. Maybe if the parents would have raised the kid better, he would still be alive today.

I feel for the officer who had to shoot him, and I feel he had to.

I do feel as in most cases, the police are partially to blame for overall practices in dealing with issues like these. I however, do not fault the man with his finger on the trigger when he saw what for all intents and purposes resembles a real gun, and instinctually fired in self defense.

I do not want my thoughts on this to be misconstrued or mistaken.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: shield you don't use less than lethal when they have lethal

Do they teach that at the Police Academy?