Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez The Fox administration has engaged a series of efforts aimed at curbing undocumented migration. Fox has repeatedly sought a head-to-head with Bush and his cabinet to outline immigration reform in the US (to let more Mexicans cross, legalize those there and arrange for easier transit between the two countries). Fox has strengthened the "Paisano" program to assist in the transit of Mexicans from the US (undocumented or not) safely through Mexico to their families and hometowns. Fox has also fostered measures to dinminish the health-risks associated with undocumented crossings (health tips, maps and water bottles in the desert). Fox has instituted programs to facilitate credit and finance small business startups and community projects underwriten by "Paisanos" (in one they double the amount contributed by the Paisano). Fox has brought about the recognition of voting rights for Mexicans abroad (including undocumenteds in the US).

You claim that "The Fox administration has engaged a series of efforts aimed at curbing undocumented migration.", yet every one of the items you list encourages, not curbs illegal immigration. You want to "let more Mexicans cross, legalize those there and arrange for easier transit between the two countries", in other words, well, I guess no other words are even necessary.

I really can't blame Mexico for sluffing the dregs of it's society onto U.S. taxpayers. If the Americans are stupid enough to allow it, why shouldn't Mexico take advantage of the situation?? It's win-win for Mexico.

[rmnunez]

You claim that "The Fox administration has engaged a series of efforts aimed at curbing undocumented migration.", yet every one of the items you list encourages, not curbs illegal immigration.

Improvement of conditions at home, like the construction of subsidized housing, improvements in the social services infrastructure, promotion of business startups, institution of easy credit schemes and generous governmental financing, all help diminish immigration by improving the circumstances and employment opportunities at home.

You want to "let more Mexicans cross, legalize those there and arrange for easier transit between the two countries", in other words, well, I guess no other words are even necessary.

This is what Fox asked for. Ideally Mexicans should be able to enter the US as easily as united statians can enter Mexico. A US citizens who visits Mexico and decides to stay for ever can do this simply by completing a residence application providing the adequate documentation. Mexico doesn't consider the applicant's age, gender or ethnicity. How come the US doesn't apply a similar process? Mexicans who want to go to the US, even if just to watch some soccer match, must apply for a visa first (US citizens don't need this to visit Mexico).
Some interesting data on Mexican migration:

[Rainbow]

The U.S. immigration policy needs to be adjusted and/or modernized, since U.S. needs less-legal immigrants. It works for both sides, respectively.

However, the following statement seems to dictate U.S. steps to be taken in order to regulate U.S. policy, which is completely insane :

Diplomats from Mexico and Central America on Monday demanded guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States, while criticizing a U.S. proposal for tougher border enforcement

[rmnunez]

You think that is insane, Rainbow, consider this; Mexico enforces US DoS/DHS guidelines on the admissibility of foreigners to Mexico.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: rmnunez Improvement of conditions at home, like the construction of subsidized housing, improvements in the social services infrastructure, promotion of business startups, institution of easy credit schemes and generous governmental financing, all help diminish immigration by improving the circumstances and employment opportunities at home.

Perhaps a good start would be to allow clear title to property rights, including that land that has been used by generations through adverse posession. By allowing ownership of the shanty towns around the major cities in Mexico would go a long way to improving the conditions of the poorest of poor.

Quote by: rmnunez This is what Fox asked for. Ideally Mexicans should be able to enter the US as easily as united statians can enter Mexico. A US citizens who visits Mexico and decides to stay for ever can do this simply by completing a residence application providing the adequate documentation. Mexico doesn't consider the applicant's age, gender or ethnicity. How come the US doesn't apply a similar process? Mexicans who want to go to the US, even if just to watch some soccer match, must apply for a visa first (US citizens don't need this to visit Mexico).

I would tend to agree about needing a visa, however, Mexico does have an income requirement for those from the United States who wish to live permenantly in Mexico. I believe it is at $1000/month per person to live as an expatriate in Mexico. That comes out to more than double the average per capita income of the country.

Would you be opposed to such an income requirement be set for those who wish to come from Mexico the the United States? Perhaps it should be set at the same amount, double the average per capita income. That would mean that for a Mexican to relocate to the US he or she would have to show an income of around $10,000 per month.

Sounds about fair to me if that's the way we want to compare things.

Keith

[rmnunez]

The US also has an income requirement for those seeking a visa to work there, I believe its around $3,000 per month.

Mexico’s per capita income in 2004 was $6,770, the US’ was $41,400 (http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/global...epercapita.htm).

If the $1,000 monthly income required for united statians to live in Mexico is seen as about a seventh of the average annual income, then a seventh of $41,400 (about $5,900) ought to be sufficient for a Mexican to get by in the US. If instead we see the $1,000 a month as about a fortieth of the average income in the US, about a fortieth of the average income in Mexico (or just $169) might be enough.

I don't think requiring foreign undocumented seasonal farm workers show proof of about double the national income of the average citizen in one of the world's most affluent countries to gain admission there sounds reasonable at all. I do think one might consider how different the average united statian seeking Mexican residence is from his Mexican counterpart. Most united statians taking up residence in Mexico are retired while most Mexicans doing the same in the US are still in the workforce.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: rmnunez You think that is insane, Rainbow, consider this; Mexico enforces US DoS/DHS guidelines on the admissibility of foreigners to Mexico.

Diplomats should seek for political solutions, instead of submiting weird statements.
That is what I meant.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez I do think one might consider how different the average united statian seeking Mexican residence is from his Mexican counterpart. Most united statians taking up residence in Mexico are retired while most Mexicans doing the same in the US are still in the workforce.

Nice that you try to compare United Statians taking up residence in mexico and mexicans coming to the United States to work. What if a United Statian wants to work in mexico??

"You are not permitted to travel to Mexico, enter as a tourist and seek gainful employment there. You must have the correct migratory permits to do so before you go.

Permits are gained from the Mexican Government and are issued to people who are sponsored by companies in Mexico (or foreign companies with Mexican operations / subsidiaries), or by people with specific skills required in Mexico. You can enter Mexico to work for a foreign company provided that you do not receive any remuneration directly from a Mexican company or subsidiary. Permits can also be arranged for investors (i.e. setting up your own company), but you'll need to invest 40,000 times the daily minimum salary in order to qualify. Casual investors (for example, buying stocks on the Mexican Stock Exchange) can also get resident permits, although as with direct investment, you will need to invest the same amount as above.

These mechanisms are in place to ensure that you will not be: a) taking jobs that Mexican nationals could otherwise have and/or; b) ensure that if you don't have an immediate income, you have the means to support yourself without relying on the Mexican State in any way." http://www.mexperience.com/liveandwo...ing_mexico.htm

And yet you insist that mexicans coming illegally to the United States be exempt from the same requirements you levy on foreigners. Just more hypocritical crap.

[rmnunez]

What if a United Statian wants to work in mexico?? "You are not permitted to travel to Mexico, enter as a tourist and seek gainful employment there. You must have the correct migratory permits to do so before you go.

Inaccurate, I travelled to Mexico as a tourist and after 3 months decided I'd stay a bit longer so I easily obtained an automatic extension of my tourist status just showing a credit card. Another 3 months later I went back and obtained a residence card describing my practice as an attorney without proof of income. I've been a lawful resident in Mexico since 2000 annually renewing my residence permit. On my own initiative, not because it was ever required by any immigration authority here, I obtained my tax identification, professional accreditation and the documentation to lawfully receive payments for work in Mexico. One certainly doesn't need a work permit or proof of income to gain access to Mexico. You don't have to apply to the Mexican authorities abroad as this can be lawfully done once you arrive in Mexico.

Basically the processes to reside in Mexico are identical to those required in the US, the major differences are 1) it is not required all the paperwork be completed in advance before travelling to Mexico, 2) any Mexican restrictions are not based on age, gender or ethnicity (except as required from their application of US DHS/DoS guidelines), 3) the Mexican process takes 2 or 3 weeks rather than the months of delay resulting from DHS, 4) the employability of foreign residents accomodates the skills normally found among such immigrants, and 5) the costs for residency in Mexico come to about $150 dollars rather about 10 times that amount required from poorer people trying to do this in the US.

United statians who are married to Mexicans witness how their spouses are literally put through the ringer to establish residence. Months or even years after a foreigner marries a unted statian the authorities there are still checking backgrounds and trying to catch inconsistencies in admission interviews.

Although other countries may apply similar processes, we should consider how the US needs a special process. This is required because the US is a major labor market which attracts a lot more immigrants than other places. Given its history, the size of the economy and volume of applicants, the US needs a better procedure and the answer isn't to just stop allowing anyone in.

[Zeebadee]

"The employment of foreigners in Mexico is restricted. Immigration laws provide that no foreigner may be accepted for work, unless it is shown to the entire satisfaction of the immigration authorities, that there is no Mexican national available for that type of job.

There are, however, some enterprises, which are from time to time in need of persons with special skills or professions, and being such the case, the immigration office grants a permit for the admission of a foreigner, allowing him to perform a remunerative work in Mexico.

A list of organizations or enterprises, which have such openings for foreigners, is not available at the Mexican Consulate. The applicant himself must get in touch with possible employers.

It should be understood that the employer in Mexico is the one that in all instances must apply before the Instituto Nacional de Migración (National Institute of Migration) in Mexico for the entry and working permit of the foreign employee. "
http://www.consulmex.com/eng/faq.asp#working

How many illegals (of any natioanality) would we have working in this country if the same rules applied??

[rmnunez]

unless it is shown to the entire satisfaction of the immigration authorities, that there is no Mexican national available for that type of job

On paper it looks that way, but Mexico doesn't closely coordinate job openings and labor conditions with the immigration authority. A client of mine sought a residence permit as a bilingual Spanish-English interpreter/translator, his application was rejected, resubmitted as a Bengali-English and Bengali-Spanish interpreter/translator worked out just fine. Labor and Immigration authorities don't closely coordinate in the US either.

There are, however, some enterprises, which are from time to time in need of persons with special skills or professions, and being such the case, the immigration office grants a permit for the admission of a foreigner, allowing him to perform a remunerative work in Mexico.

Indistinguishable from the US practice, an immigrant with an employment letter, regardless of job description, can work there too.

A list of organizations or enterprises, which have such openings for foreigners, is not available at the Mexican Consulate. The applicant himself must get in touch with possible employers.

Imagine the outrage if a list of employers with openings for foreigners were available at the nearest US consulate or embassy.

It should be understood that the employer in Mexico is the one that in all instances must apply before the Instituto Nacional de Migración (National Institute of Migration) in Mexico for the entry and working permit of the foreign employee.

Yes, but professional retention prior to admission is not a prerequisite, since I've been in Mexico I have found employment with both Mexican and foreign employers.

And do note there are a variety of immigration modalities; related family members, students, tourists, investors, academicians, white-collar professionals, clergy... These different types of immigrants have specific conditions to show if they seek to reside in Mexico, just as is the case in the US. But the immigrants to the US aren't the sort of people with diplomas for special skills or likely hired abroad to work in some US multinational corporate headquarters -they are mostly just menials.

If you want to compare how residency applicants are treated consider how, despite an estimated million united statians unlawfully present in Mexico, the government has made no effort to deport any of them and instead has extended extensions with fee-waivers and all sorts of facilities to get the undocumenteds (of all nationalities) to formalize their situation. Consider how under the Trade NAFTA (TN) visa procedure Mexicans going to work in the US for a Mexican or Canadian employer have to go through a protracted application procedure, while Canadians employed by a Mexican or Canadian employer in the US just need their driver's license (the TN visa was supposed to apply the same to all 3 NAFTA members).

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: rmnunez The US also has an income requirement for those seeking a visa to work there, I believe its around $3,000 per month. Mexico’s per capita income in 2004 was $6,770, the US’ was $41,400 (http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/global...epercapita.htm). If the $1,000 monthly income required for united statians to live in Mexico is seen as about a seventh of the average annual income, then a seventh of $41,400 (about $5,900) ought to be sufficient for a Mexican to get by in the US. If instead we see the $1,000 a month as about a fortieth of the average income in the US, about a fortieth of the average income in Mexico (or just $169) might be enough. I don't think requiring foreign undocumented seasonal farm workers show proof of about double the national income of the average citizen in one of the world's most affluent countries to gain admission there sounds reasonable at all. I do think one might consider how different the average united statian seeking Mexican residence is from his Mexican counterpart. Most united statians taking up residence in Mexico are retired while most Mexicans doing the same in the US are still in the workforce.

If showing that level of income is what is needed to show that US citizens won't be a burden on Mexican society, seems to me a similar level as a percentage of per capita income of those who wish to move to the US.

The purpose of such laws isn't to set a floor based on the income of the country that one is moving FROM but to set a floore based on the income of the country one is moving TO. The idea in Mexico is that if the average citizen earns a certain amount then requiring twice that amount would be enough to make sure that the person moving is contributing to, not taking from, society. If we wish to make sure of the same in the US it is obvious that more income is required than would be the same in Mexico.

Also, as I have stated previously, the US should not just be submitting to the demands of foreign governments. These things should be negotiated. If we are to allow more and more free immigration to the US, the US should get something in return from Mexico. One thing to start would be a reduction or elimination of laws limiting ownership of business by US citizens in Mexico. Another would be an opening of the purchase of property in the Fronteras of Mexico.

Such changes would accomplish a lot. One thing would be to allow US citizens more opportunity to invest in Mexico, thereby strengthening the Mexican economy. Such investments by US citizens is likely to result in a stronger and more clear rule of law and more clear title to property, which has been an ongoing problem in Mexico and other third world countries. Such stronger economy and property rights is likely to result in better conditions for Mexican citizens thereby reducing the incentive for many to leave.

Instead, we keep hearing what Fox is demanding but he is offering nothing in return. Not even to reduce the corruption in the Mexican government that has limited the economic growth which has resulted in the great masses crossing the border.

Keith

[rmnunez]

Mexico has a special problem with foreign property acquisition ever since the US "bought" California, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, Nevada, Utah, Colorado and other originally Mexican territory. Hence Mexicans demand their government be especially cautious in any real estate transactions involving foreigners -particulary united statians. Now foreigners are not allowed to own real estate within 50 miles of any national boundary and this unfortunately includes the scenic coastline. Although Mexicans can acquire property in the US without similar restrictions, I suppose this may be because nobody has bought a third of their country from under united statians' feet.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez If you want to compare how residency applicants are treated consider how, despite an estimated million united statians unlawfully present in Mexico, the government has made no effort to deport any of them and instead has extended extensions with fee-waivers and all sorts of facilities to get the undocumenteds (of all nationalities) to formalize their situation.

Another crock of crap. How many of these "million united statians" are illegally working in Mexico, let alone drawing any form of subsidization from the Mexican government?? Where did you get your "million" figure??

"According to Mexican officials, 200,000 Americans are living illegally in Mexico, some of the "drybacks" have been attracted to Mexico by the promise of NAFTA-inspired jobs. There are 150,000 Americans registered with Mexico's National Migration Institute as permanent residents, and two million Americans visit Mexico every year as tourists."

<snip>

"Most illegal Americans appear to be retirees living in Baja, California, but there are ever more frequent reports of young and educated Americans arriving in Mexico City to teach English." http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=392_0_2_0

A few teachers and a lot of retirees, no wonder the Mexican government isn't trying to deport them. The retirees don't take any jobs, don't require any support, and spend their retirment income in country, thus contributing in a positive manner to the Mexican economy. Do you really think this is equivalent to the millions of illegal Mexicans living and working in the U.S.??

[rmnunez]

The immigration situation on either side is very different. As noted, lots of US immigrants to Mexico are retirees, very few Mexicans go to the US to retire. Most Mexicans migrate to the US for menial work, very few united statians go to Mexico for such work. These fundamental differences make the respective immigration policies quite different. Since most united statians seeking residence in Mexico have income or can generate it, there is concern over their adequate fiscalization, something that seems of little import to immigration authorities in the US given the low wages typically earned by Mexicans there.

The figure of "about 850,000" undocumented united statians ('drybacks'?) was provided by the Mexican immigration authority in its monthly gazette. I figured its about a million since these are undocumenteds so its hard to get an accurate read and underestimating likely.

[bugsbunny04]

Uh, lets not and then say we did. The fuckers need to work on there problems so their people wont be so eager to get out.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Since most united statians seeking residence in Mexico have income or can generate it, there is concern over their adequate fiscalization...

Yeah, we can't have Americans living in Mexico when they can't afford to. How about giving us some statistics on the number of illegal Americans in Mexico that are receiving food stamps, welfare payments, free schooling for their kids, free medical care, Mexican social security, or any other form of government or social program support??

Quote by: rmnunez ..... something that seems of little import to immigration authorities in the US given the low wages typically earned by Mexicans there.

Tell us something we don't already know. The fact that our government agencies are subservient to agri-business and other exploiters of cheap immigrant labor is well known to everyone with the slightest interest in the issue. If you were really concerned with the "low wages typically earned by Mexicans" here, you wouldn't be so eager to get your hands on the money they send home, and would stop aiding, abetting, and encouraging them to come to the U.S. to be exploited.

Quote by: rmnunez The figure of "about 850,000" undocumented united statians ('drybacks'?) was provided by the Mexican immigration authority in its monthly gazette. I figured its about a million since these are undocumenteds so its hard to get an accurate read and underestimating likely.

Then by the same token, if bush is telling us that there are 8 million undocumented Mexicans in this country, we can figure it's reall 10 million, since "these are undocumenteds so its hard to get an accurate read and underestimating likely."??

[rmnunez]

I've seen estimates that put the number of Mexicans in the US at around 22 million, of which between 8 and 12 million are undocumented. Whatever figure you find credible is likely an underestimate. The tables I posted earlier suggest immigration to the US has grown tremendously since the mid 80s and the fear over terrorism hasn't had much impact.

[rmnunez]

Fees for Mexicans seeking to work temporarily in the US (under an H-1B (college degreed temp. workers), TN (investors) or L-1 (students) visa):

• $190 for the application form,
  $750 or $1500 for the background check,
  $500 more for fraud prevention,
  $10 for a phone card with PIN number to get an appointment

Fee Mexico charges a united statian to get a comparable residence card:

• $130 to about $150 for the application (depending on type)
  $1.50 for 3 copies of the fee payment form
  $1.00 for 2 copies of the application form

[brien]

Quote by: rmnunez Fees for Mexicans seeking to work temporarily in the US (under an H-1B (college degreed temp. workers), TN (investors) or L-1 (students) visa): $190 for the application form, $750 or $1500 for the background check, $500 more for fraud prevention, $10 for a phone card with PIN number to get an appointment Fee Mexico charges a united statian to get a comparable residence card: $130 to about $150 for the application (depending on type) $1.50 for 3 copies of the fee payment form $1.00 for 2 copies of the application form

As far as fees....

Not for nothing here, because I haven't been involved in the debates, but I "hear" from friends of mine who have visited Mexico in areas that aren't trendy tourist traps, that one has to bribe the police and "Federales" in order to remain on the correct side of the law in Mexico. This seems to be a regular complaint that I hear about Mexico. It is as if this is an expected practice. I always wondered if this was more the case than, let's say, not the case. I merely dismissed this as hearsay and probably the exception rather than the norm. Any comments?