Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration

[brien]

Quote by: Logjam The trouble is thing's will probably go the other way. Mexico may annex California, New Mexico, Nevada.....naw not Vegas; and Arizona. As the hords of Mexicans invade those states they vote in larger and larger blocks. Who knows what they could do. Could a Mexican governor of say, Arizona open the border and let the Mexicans flow in? Sure he could. Could he then secede from the US? Sure he could. Could the Mexicans run Californias from California? Maybe. I sure as hell left the state. They are calling California, Mexifornia; and for good reason. Mexicans in of themselves aren't bad people; least not all of them are. (Some are very bad indeed.) but they bring with them their oppressed attitude of government control. I don't think that they respect the law, or the government. In Mexico the government is the source of evil which effects their relationship to democracy.

Well if you are serious here, there are a few minor problems. Like Arizona, or any other state here could TRY and succeede from the Union, but they wouldn't get very far. The Army would show up right quick and place the Governor's office, and the state, under Marshall Law.

The best hope for your scenario is that Mexico could reclaim the teritory that was ANNEXED FROM THEM in order to create the states in the southwest.

It is my understanding that most immirgrants who have political leanings tend to end up in the Democratic Party. I would like to see some figures on that though because this is only what I have heard on the street.

[thatoneguy00]

well if they had any decency and respect for this country they would not try to get in ILLEGALLY. You know what I mean, I am sorry but I hate having to stand by and watch immigrants get special grants and get treated special and even now florida is making it mandatory for americans to take spanish. I don't think it should be mandatory I think that it should be optional, but mandatory for everyone to know english. To me their are certain rights that you should not be able to take advantage of if you are a legal or illegal immigrant, such as if you want to drive in america you need to know english. you cam here, you can accomodate the needs of the societry you chose to live in ,nobodys forcing you. If you need housing assistance atleast show proof of employment or that there is some sort of money coming in that household so that eventually you can pay it back or atleast pay taxes. I have included a sight for the whole florida thing here it is
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/f...?storyid=47175

[rmnunez]

Move the border south to Guatemala, moderate Mexican immigration procedure and allow the free transit of north Americans across the continent. Mexicans are 70% of the hispanics in the US who are anticipated to surpass Anglos in number by 2010. How long after then will it be before we have a Mexican in the Oval Office? When that happens, wouldn't you expect some improvement on the border situation? Its inevitable, might as well start moving in the right direction. If Mexico can apply basically DoS guidelines for refugees, political asylees and immigrant qualifications in general, then the US could make some accomodation for the almost 1/5th of the population there. If Mexicans could cross the border without fear a substantial proportion would periodically return to Mexico. The US economy will regulate the flow of people better than any walls or immigration regulations.

[weasel]

And I quote from Glenn Beck's Fusion magazine:

By the Numbers -

"4 million: babies born to illegal immigrants over the next decade

36 to 42: percentage of illegal aliens on the US welfare system

95: Percentage of arrest warrants for homicide issued in Los Angeles County that are for illegal aliens

45,000: valid driver licenses issued to illegal aliens in Utah."


This is nothing short of unacceptable and Bush has absolutely failed to effectively confront this problem (in my opinion, the only shortcomming in his presidency). If illegals can so easily get across our border, whats to stop a terrorist?

Let me know your opinion concerning this matter.

[RVonse]

Quote by: weasel This is nothing short of unacceptable and Bush has absolutely failed to effectively confront this problem (in my opinion, the only shortcomming in his presidency). .

I heard him mention in his state of the union speech, to the effect that our economy depends on illegal imagration. Which sounds like complete BS to me.

Our country never seems to learn the lesson that the rich can not exploit a certain class of people and not incur consequences. First it was black slavery and now it is illegals from Mexico. IMO, generations (both black and whites) decendants are still paying the price for the past greediness of southern plantation owners.

Today it is precisly the same greediness of the businesses who choose to destroy the future of this country simply for short term gain and profits. When it comes to greed and business you can be sure Bush will stay on his knees in order to lick their ass. Illegal immegration is here to stay as long as Bush is our leader.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: RVonse Our country never seems to learn the lesson that the rich can not exploit a certain class of people and not incur consequences. First it was black slavery and now it is illegals from Mexico. IMO, generations (both black and whites) decendants are still paying the price for the past greediness of southern plantation owners. Today it is precisly the same greediness of the businesses who choose to destroy the future of this country simply for short term gain and profits. When it comes to greed and business you can be sure Bush will stay on his knees in order to lick their ass. Illegal immegration is here to stay as long as Bush is our leader.

Our country has learned that the rich CAN exploit a certain class of people. It's not the rich that are paying to subsidize illegal aliens, it's the average American taxpayer that does that.

Illegal immigration is certainly not here to stay. bush has a plan to put an end to illegal immigration. He's going to change the rules so it isn't illegal anymore. They'll still come, they'll still load down our schools, hospitals, and other public services. But they'll be "guest workers" now.

[rmnunez]

Weasel, the federal government (Bush) doesn't have much impact on specifics like the numbers you offered. Which is this "US welfare system" you mention?

As I understand it, if an applicant is eligible for state-funded public assistance, they may apply and obtain federal public assistance too. Typically an individual on relief receives different allotments to complete a total of entitlements which generally are about 50% from the state and the rest federal in provenance (in some large cities public assistance is also municipally funded). Generally the social workers and people in the process try to assemble a benefits package for the applicant with enough resources from all sources to cover certain minimum requirements.

[Rainbow]

Diplomats from Mexico and Central America on Monday demanded guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States, while criticizing a U.S. proposal for tougher border enforcement

Comedians :-)

[weasel]

rmnunez you are missing the point. Illegal aliens are leeching off the benefits of this nation; benefits that hard workering AMERICANS would like to see stick around and not go to people who have not earned it.

I am not anti-immigration. Immigration is what made this country great. But there is a process that needs to be followed in order to enter this country legally. When that process is side-stepped, the nation suffers.

more info to come

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: weasel rmnunez you are missing the point. Illegal aliens are leeching off the benefits of this nation; benefits that hard workering AMERICANS would like to see stick around and not go to people who have not earned it.

Not earned it?

How does one "earn it"?


It must mean that you don't work and live in a trailer.

Because obviously working out in the fields for 14 hours a day is meaningless.

[rmnunez]

Mexicans equitably do earn entitlements enjoyed in the US. They earn those tax-funded benefits indirectly since they don't pay taxes. Fortunately their employers usually do pay taxes on income and this income will rise thanks to their using undocumenteds. Presumably the enhanced profits generated to US employers by hiring undocumenteds and paying them less will be reflected in their balances and that is taxed.

Ideally the undocumenteds would pay income taxes, but then their employers would need to pay them better and then why hire them instead of local natives?

[Chris]

Quote by: weasel rmnunez you are missing the point. Illegal aliens are leeching off the benefits of this nation; benefits that hard workering AMERICANS would like to see stick around and not go to people who have not earned it. I am not anti-immigration. Immigration is what made this country great. But there is a process that needs to be followed in order to enter this country legally. When that process is side-stepped, the nation suffers. more info to come

I think you are quoting Sean Hannity Verbatim.

[brien]

Quote by: rmnunez Mexicans equitably do earn entitlements enjoyed in the US. They earn those tax-funded benefits indirectly since they don't pay taxes. Fortunately their employers usually do pay taxes on income and this income will rise thanks to their using undocumenteds. Presumably the enhanced profits generated to US employers by hiring undocumenteds and paying them less will be reflected in their balances and that is taxed. Ideally the undocumenteds would pay income taxes, but then their employers would need to pay them better and then why hire them instead of local natives?

I hesitate to get into this an hour before I leave here, but I would like to ask you a few questions.

Do you think it wise to declare all illegals/ undocumenteds amnesty and sign them up for citizenship?

Do you think it wise to seal the borders and funnel ALL immigration into the US through legal ports of entry?

I don't see the problem as immigration but rather the lack of enforcement of legal immigration through legal ports of entry. Offering amnesty to all existing illegals/undocumenteds would bring them out of hiding and offer them the benefits of citizenship.

Sealing and protecting the borders of the US will protect the US from the illegal entry of enemies of the state, as well as from criminals of other foreign countries. It will protect American Industry from falling prey to the temptation of hiring illegals. It will ensure that every working American has the protection of The Fair Employment Act as sponsored by the US government. It will generate more unemployment tax to support those who are legally unemployed and maybe even reduce the tax itself through greater contributions from employers.

So, in summary, don't you think that it would benefit all parties invvolved to seal the borders and channel immigration through legal ports of entry?

Do you think it wise to offer amnesty to all illegals/ undocumenteds currently in the US?

I believe these are two solutions that would immediately begin to address the problems that extend from the illegal entry of undocumented workers into the US, as well as protect the US from illegal entry of criminals and enemies of the state.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Mexico is now the 8th most imnportant economy in the world and rose from 10th about 2 years ago. The US is still at the number one spot but Mexico is improving things.

What a laugh!!! A.) Mexico gets a significant portion of it's income from the money that illegals in the U.S. send home. B.) Mexico saves untold millions by sending the poorest of it's citizens to the U.S., thus dumping the costs of any Mexican social programs onto U.S. taxpayers. The taxpayers spend umpty-ump millions on social programs to help under-paid illegal immigrants, U.S. agribusiness rake in profits by paying less than living wages, Mexican politicians rake off millions by printing maps and directions for their undesireables instead of providing their own social programs.

When Mexico has the ability to take care of it's own people, then it might have a chance of being considered an "imnportant economy in the world". Until then, they ought to STFU and be grateful for the crumbs our politicians toss them.

[King Diamond]

Illegal immigration is the economy of Mexico. The idea that INS, or ICE as it has been re-labelled by DHS, could cope with an amnesty program or channeling all immigration through legal means is downright laughable. They can't even keep up with the low percentage of immigrants who do decide to try and enter legally now. Neither party will touch immigration law reform as they know they would be incapable of dealing with that gigantic can of worms. It would be political suicide.

My question is: If we need illegals to do the jobs that Americans do not want to do, then why are we shipping jobs that Americans do want to the countries that the illegals have just left?

[brien]

Quote by: King Diamond Illegal immigration is the economy of Mexico. The idea that INS, or ICE as it has been re-labelled by DHS, could cope with an amnesty program or channeling all immigration through legal means is downright laughable. They can't even keep up with the low percentage of immigrants who do decide to try and enter legally now. Neither party will touch immigration law reform as they know they would be incapable of dealing with that gigantic can of worms. It would be political suicide. My question is: If we need illegals to do the jobs that Americans do not want to do, then why are we shipping jobs that Americans do want to the countries that the illegals have just left?

You are correct. The operation set up now can't possibly be successful in forcing immigration through legal channels.

The Army and National Guard could do it. The government could set up LEGAL PORTS OF ENTRY.

THEY DON"T WANT TO DO IT DOWN THERE.

When the Americans DEMAND this of the politicians, then it will happen.

[amana1man]

Quote by: Matt W I'd agree that the USA needs to think seriously about a 'Guest Worker' Visa, or even a 'Working Holiday' visa. The rest...well. Up to the American public, really, but I do think a nation of immigrants being 'tough on immigration' is somewhat ridiculous.

My children can find no work in the USA which pays more than $8.00 an hour and what they have found has no benifites and they get only about 20 hours a week. It is the wealthy which say we need more "guest workers" so they can get labors for slave wages.
Yes I am the g-g-g-g-grandson of a immigrant as is the population of most ever country on earth. The oldest populations of any country are those of Iran and Iraq area. Look at them, they have been fighting in this area for 5000 years and will continue until they blow themselfs up. I feel immigration should be stopped. It is not our problem when some countries breed like rabbits and now are starving because of this. I do say help those in those countries but close our borders to them. In the USA the homeless and the destitute grow daily. Think about the poverty-stricken who can find no work and live in cardboard homes. Des Moines Iowa wants to destroy the tent city of the homeless because it looks bad for the city. They could spend money gave for stupid shit like Iowa Rain Forest to build shelters so those people would not be out in sub zero weather living in tents. Back to a nation of immigrants, very few people can say where there ancesters lived 300 years ago. We know even the Indians of the USA came here from somewhere.

[rmnunez]

Do you think it wise to declare all illegals/undocumenteds amnesty and sign them up for citizenship? Do you think it wise to seal the borders and funnel ALL immigration into the US through legal ports of entry?

Most undocumenteds don't want US citizenship, they'd prefer lawful residence. This is a generalized trait among all hispanics in the US. Lawfully admitted long-term hispanic residents, who've raised their kids and lived decades in the US, married to genuine united statians, taxpayers and homeowners with leading roles in their communities, renew their green cards regularly, but fail to opt for automatic citizenship. I presume the US regards its citizenship as a higher status than mere lawful residency, so I wonder how come mere residency is so difficult to confer.

I do believe "funneling" all migration to the US through selected ports would be ideal, but would anticipate that as long as the current strictures apply, undocumented overflows will make their way otherwise. Physically sealing the border with a huge wall is ridiculous, wasteful, costly, environmentally catastrofic and would be a monumental embarrasement until it got torn down. Humorists here in Mexico have found a "silver lining" to the possibility; lots of jobs for Mexicans who dominate all positions in the construction industry across the Southwest, and a great surface upon which Mexicans could practice their accomplished muralism.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Most undocumenteds don't want US citizenship, they'd prefer lawful residence.

The problem being, of course, is that their idea of "lawful residence" includes all the rights and benefits usually reserved for citizens. When the benefits of illegal immigrants are virtually indistinguishable from those of legal immigrants, "lawful residence" becomes a meaningless term.

What if "lawful residence" meant just the ability to live and work in this country, nothing more? How many of these "undocumenteds" could survive their low-paying jobs in this country without the subsidies provided by the taxpayers? When I was living overseas supporting our military, it cost me about $5000 a year to keep my kid in the DODDS school system, and that was years ago. If illegals were charged an equivalent amount for their kids' schooling here, how would they be able to pay it? What if food stamps were unavailable to them? How about medical care?

And you continue to ignore the fact that Mexico sends it's poorest citizens north in order to evade it's own responsibility to take care of their people. The Mexican government really doesn't give a good crap about the living and working conditions of the dregs of it's society as long as they are off it's books and continue to send money home.

[rmnunez]

Lawful residence is the situation a foreigner should find himself in when not travelling as a tourist abroad. Residence is something that results from an administrative process. If you travel to a foreign country and decide to stay there the government will demand you satisfy certain conditions; first submit an application, pictures and prints, purpose of stay (education, medical treatment, family unity, employment, investment, or whatever). In the US, like everywhere else, there are limitations on the number of people admitted and they select based on ethnic background, age and health of the applicant. The procedure in the US is inordinately slow and cumbersome and its ethnic selections wholly inadequate. The US immigration procedure needs to be streamlined and should take better account of actual labor market demands rather than try maintain some outdated ethnic balance in a hypothetical melting-pot.

Lawful residents are taxed, just as regular citizens. They also enjoy basically the same rights and priviledges, with exceptions in areas like voting, military service and political roles. Foreign residents may receive public assistance, though dependance on the state (sovereign) is grounds for excludability.

Unfortunately, legalized undocumenteds step up the social ladder and their low-paying vacancies are filled with more undocumenteds, what is sought is a process that doesn't result in the undocumenteds moving up, the US needs them to stay in the low-paying positions now held. Once an undocumented gets legalized he has to pay those taxes, so the wages he was making illegally are not enough and now that he is taxable his marketability grows.

I do not ignore the fact Mexico ought to do something about this too, but if they don't the problem won't go away. Blaming it on Mexico doesn't solve anything. If the US wants to change things they can, they have tried in different ways. I think the US should offer an annually adjusted seasonal agricultural residence permit based on acres to harvest. I believe they could offer a temporary residence permit for specified occupations based on formal market demands, as is done with the high tech Indians for Silicon Valley employers, but for menial work. A fair estimate of industry-specific market demands would be required and since the wages of these menials are so low, perhaps a scheme could be devised to tax the industry alloted with a number of temporary foreign resident workers in proportion to the estimate of what the worker would pay as a regular resident.

Mexico is actively engaged on this issue. The federal government and legislature as well as the army and particularly law-enforcement, have all recognized they cannot cope with the volume.

The Fox administration has engaged a series of efforts aimed at curbing undocumented migration. Fox has repeatedly sought a head-to-head with Bush and his cabinet to outline immigration reform in the US (to let more Mexicans cross, legalize those there and arrange for easier transit between the two countries). Fox has strengthened the "Paisano" program to assist in the transit of Mexicans from the US (undocumented or not) safely through Mexico to their families and hometowns. Fox has also fostered measures to dinminish the health-risks associated with undocumented crossings (health tips, maps and water bottles in the desert). Fox has instituted programs to facilitate credit and finance small business startups and community projects underwriten by "Paisanos" (in one they double the amount contributed by the Paisano). Fox has brought about the recognition of voting rights for Mexicans abroad (including undocumenteds in the US). Fox has built more subsidized housing units than all the governments before his, they've underwritten business incubators across the country with an impressive output and are facilitating easy credit terms for all sorts of micro and small business start-ups, especially if funded by Paisanos. All sorts of educational efforts have been instituted from literacy for adults to college credits for lifetime experience gained illicitly in the US.

Mexico lacks the fiscal base to subsidize unemployment so an element of the problem will remain until Mexicans all get better at taxes. This is a much bigger problem than immigration, and one that will involve gradual monumental shifts. As governments get better at taxing, revenue will grow, with more taxes people will start calling for better accountability and this will diminish corruption. Less corruption will mean more economic activity particularly if coupled with more government spending of its enhanced tax revenue.