Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration

[Doctor Satan]

No offense to anybody because I definately am not a rascist...but IMO I think the US should try focusing on our own people before offering open spaces for other countries. Look at all the people in this country that are homeless or working the streets just to feed themselves...what good is it gonna do to increase the population when we can't even shelter and feed the one we have??

[SteveA]

Quote by: Doctor Satan No offense to anybody because I definately am not a rascist...but IMO I think the US should try focusing on our own people before offering open spaces for other countries. Look at all the people in this country that are homeless or working the streets just to feed themselves...what good is it gonna do to increase the population when we can't even shelter and feed the one we have??

Though things aren't too bad here, I agree with you. Since this thread was in regards to Mexico, for Mexico specifically, it might be good to pay more attention on why people are fleeing from it instead of expecting the U.S. to cough up more support for immigration.

Imagine if we had a president here that said something like, "We know our economy is oing downhill but it's ok because we're pressuring Mexico to be able to allow U.S. citizens to easy immigrate into Mexico and access their social programs."

Truthfully though immigration is only part of the problem. Similar problems surrounding immigration burdens exist even for many born and bred U.S. citizens. We've got a system that encourages many dependencies. This is the same as saying we having many politicians willing to buy your vote with money from other people.

[Logjam]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 The clear solution is to massively decrease the social services offered to our citizens while ushering in the Mexicans to do our menial, low wage jobs. An obvious win win for us and them.

Yep. Used to be poor Americans performed the agricultural jobs. I know, because I was one of them. Poor Americans used to do the labor jobs too.

Now, a poor American receives welfare. He doesn't have to work to survive. It's terrible. Not only is the poor American unemployed, they don't develop the skills to do the manual labor. Used to be they did.

[drgilbert4]

Quote by: Disinterested Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer Tue Jan 10, 2:09 AM ET MEXICO CITY - Diplomats from Mexico and Central America on Monday demanded guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States, while criticizing a U.S. proposal for tougher border enforcement. Meeting in Mexico's capital, the regional officials pledged to do more to fight migrant trafficking, but indirectly condemned a U.S. bill that would make illegal entry a felony and extend border walls. "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said. The countries represented at the meeting — including Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Panama — created a working group to design a regional policy to avoid migrant abuse and to follow the course of the legislation. "There has to be an integrated reform that includes a temporary worker program, but also the regularization of those people who are already living in receptor countries," Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said. Derbez has called the measure — which passed the U.S. House of Representatives last month but still must go before the Senate — "stupid and underhanded," but was somewhat more restrained on Monday, saying "it's not the Mexican government's position to tell the U.S. Senate what to do." The U.S. proposal has caused widespread resentment in Mexico, where some have accused President Vicente Fox's administration of not being assertive enough in opposing it. Fox has called the bill shameful. Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports according to the country's central bank. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/...BhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

Lets just annex Mexico. In a few short years we could make them productive. Just look what we have done for Massachusetts!!!!!

[SteveA]

Quote by: Logjam Yep. Used to be poor Americans performed the agricultural jobs. I know, because I was one of them. Poor Americans used to do the labor jobs too. Now, a poor American receives welfare. He doesn't have to work to survive. It's terrible. Not only is the poor American unemployed, they don't develop the skills to do the manual labor. Used to be they did.

This is also a lot of the reason why class disparities continue to grow in the U.S.

Social programs should have never been intended for anything other than short term assistance to get people on their feet. Anything beyond that is detrimental to all parties involved.

[Apeman81]

Quote by: SteveA This is also a lot of the reason why class disparities continue to grow in the U.S. Social programs should have never been intended for anything other than short term assistance to get people on their feet. Anything beyond that is detrimental to all parties involved.

Tell that to the men who have created empires and wealth ensuring those failed social programs were perpetuated.

[SteveA]

Quote by: Apeman81 Tell that to the men who have created empires and wealth ensuring those failed social programs were perpetuated.

I think it even applies to them as well. Simply because someone might become accustomed to being in this position doesn't mean it doesn't come without dangers, nor can happiness always be coaxed out of it ... the hangovers after a collapse could be a real bitch.

But something else, most every skill or insight a person acquires requires motivation to achieve. Even remaining happily married for 5 years requires an investment of energy. Certainly some leaders probably inherited 100 concubines from birth, but I have a feeling this goes largely unappreciated. And maintaining this requires constant attention as well. Meanwhile you have tons of resources being drained to maintain this. I don't see who anyone really wins out but of course from an individual perspective it's a bit harder to see ... without feedback in place.

Of course this all depends on temperment. I hate it when I'm expected to wear a tie to work (lazy bastard that I am ), I don't think I could handle being a movie star and expected to attend various social events without it draining me ... but then not everyone is the same. Obviously there have been some people that have few qualms about becoming a tyrrant. I guess you'd have to walk a mile or more in their boots to understand why this is true.

[brien]

Quote by: Disinterested Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer Tue Jan 10, 2:09 AM ET MEXICO CITY - Diplomats from Mexico and Central America on Monday demanded guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States, while criticizing a U.S. proposal for tougher border enforcement. Meeting in Mexico's capital, the regional officials pledged to do more to fight migrant trafficking, but indirectly condemned a U.S. bill that would make illegal entry a felony and extend border walls. "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said. The countries represented at the meeting — including Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Panama — created a working group to design a regional policy to avoid migrant abuse and to follow the course of the legislation. "There has to be an integrated reform that includes a temporary worker program, but also the regularization of those people who are already living in receptor countries," Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said. Derbez has called the measure — which passed the U.S. House of Representatives last month but still must go before the Senate — "stupid and underhanded," but was somewhat more restrained on Monday, saying "it's not the Mexican government's position to tell the U.S. Senate what to do." The U.S. proposal has caused widespread resentment in Mexico, where some have accused President Vicente Fox's administration of not being assertive enough in opposing it. Fox has called the bill shameful. Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports according to the country's central bank. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060110/...BhBHNlYwM5NjQ-

I don't understand why this stuff has to be so complicated. Solution.

1) Seal the borders and force all immigrants to come here LEGALLY, through legal channels, like they did in the 19th Century through Ellis Island. Matt, this is a nation of immigrants but of LEGAL immigrants.

2) Offer all illegals here in the nation, as of a certain date, AMNESTY. All others after that date, will be deported ASAP.

3) Congress will set annual quotas for all immigrants.

I expect this situation to be forefront in the next election local to the Southwest, and Nationally in the election of 08. The US has to get a handle on this otherwise, it will continue to fester and divide America into a "Us against them" type psyche. I have seen it hyped from both sides and it isn't getting any better.

As far as Mexico "demanding" anything form another soveriegn nation, could this be media hype? I find it hard to believe that Diplomats from Mexico are presenting the Consulate with a written or verbal demand with regard to immigration.

The way this issue is presented here, and in the media, is so typical of the entire situation of illegal immigration, I don't wonder why it can't be solved in a logical and diplomatic manner. :rolleyes:

Maybe I have oversimplified this situation, so if I have, I apologize.

[rmnunez]

I think a lot of the migration from Mexico to the US has to do with the disparity between the 2 countries. While its simple to point out this disparity and conclude Mexico needs to improve things (it does), a lot of the differences have to do with how successful the US is. Since the US is the world's most important and powerful economy, it will always have great attraction for anyone anywhere else and the highest attraction to those nearest it. I suppose if employment opportunities, standards of living and poverty levels in Mexico were indistinguishable from those in the US, then immigration from Mexico would be negligible, but how soon can we expect to see this? Mexico is now the 8th most imnportant economy in the world and rose from 10th about 2 years ago. The US is still at the number one spot but Mexico is improving things.

[brien]

Quote by: rmnunez I think a lot of the migration from Mexico to the US has to do with the disparity between the 2 countries. While its simple to point out this disparity and conclude Mexico needs to improve things (it does), a lot of the differences have to do with how successful the US is. Since the US is the world's most important and powerful economy, it will always have great attraction for anyone anywhere else and the highest attraction to those nearest it. I suppose if employment opportunities, standards of living and poverty levels in Mexico were indistinguishable from those in the US, then immigration from Mexico would be negligible, but how soon can we expect to see this? Mexico is now the 8th most imnportant economy in the world and rose from 10th about 2 years ago. The US is still at the number one spot but Mexico is improving things.

rmnunez: Since you are listed as being located in Mecixo City, what about a solution to the situation. I respect your observations above, but you haven't offered a solution. Do you think it is incumbent upon Mexico to do more to stem the tide of illegals across the border? Or is it simply a US problem?

Are you for legal ports of entry and closing the border to the illegal flow of humans?

I understand the reasons that illegals come to the US but that is only half of the equation. The other half is how to solve the problem that is straining relations between Mexico and the US, and causing consternation by citizens who understand and misunderstand the situation as well.

Something I think all people can agree upon is there has to be a solution to this problem in the next few years. It would be best if it were forged through mutual cooperation between the US and Mexico, but if it continues as it is going, there will be a Congressional backlash that may leave the matter entirely in the hands of the Americans.

One way or another, the problem has to be addressed and solved.

[thatoneguy00]

I got a point to express, how long does it take for a nation to be a nation, I read somebody said a nation of immigrants closing the borders. ok first of all I wasn't alive when we took this country over it was already known as america, so when I was born I was born an american.and as an american I think that its time to stop calling america a nation of immigrants because guess what WE ARE AMERICANS, and I am DAMN PROUD to be an AMERICAN. I mean I really bust my ass everyday at work, but I have never missed a bill or loan payment, hey what do ya know the true american dream. not for the immigrants that come here and get tax breaks and money from the gocernment when I don't get those same rights and I am american. I am not being hateful towards any one kind of people I am just simply saying, I went to college and I didn't qualify for financial aid because of some investments I have, well let me ask you something whats the point of an investment ? To make money well if you pull it out early you lose money so I worked to pay for school. Meanwhile this student from japan got full financial aid assistance, housing and food and even gas all from our government, and he has never paid a dime in taxes to this country. can someone explain this to me?

[SteveA]

Quote by: thatoneguy00 ... Meanwhile this student from japan got full financial aid assistance, housing and food and even gas all from our government, and he has never paid a dime in taxes to this country. can someone explain this to me?

My father was born here, has worked all his life paying taxes and even getting generally screwed over by the system beyond this. He's over 70 now and has had health problems for almost 10 years now yet still manages to work and generally support himself (I assist him occasionally).

He hasn't received any public assistance either, yet the same thing happens that someone can immigrate here and have nothing invested in the system yet politicians go on a vote buying binge and give that person a lifetime of public support.

I totally agree with you, Oneguy.

My wife's an immigrant and she started working at 18 to help her family. I started working at 17 for a few hours a day after school. You'd assume that an immigrant who came here to flee even more oppressive circumstances would likely find even short term assistance a pleasure. I think it ruins the work ethic many people bring with them, and this can have lasting effects across generations, to indoctrinate them into government dependence via. social programs. We're still a relatively charitable country and I'm certain there are many private ways an immigrant can receive assistance if it's a long term issue.

Look at the burden this system creates to those trying to get out from under it experience. Anyone single who begins to get ahead is going to face an uphill battle one they have enough resources available for the taking to feed this system. On top of this the person must decide if it's even worth the effort considering that staying dependent on the social system wouldn't require nearly as much effort.

[thatoneguy00]

Steve its like you took the words right out of my mouth. This is definately the truth, and ya know what the funny thing about it is though, WE CAN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT except for shutup and go to work and pay the irs so politicians get thier paycheck. Thats just sad that it is like this.

[brien]

Quote by: thatoneguy00 I got a point to express, how long does it take for a nation to be a nation, I read somebody said a nation of immigrants closing the borders. ok first of all I wasn't alive when we took this country over it was already known as america, so when I was born I was born an american.and as an american I think that its time to stop calling america a nation of immigrants because guess what WE ARE AMERICANS, and I am DAMN PROUD to be an AMERICAN. I mean I really bust my ass everyday at work, but I have never missed a bill or loan payment, hey what do ya know the true american dream. not for the immigrants that come here and get tax breaks and money from the gocernment when I don't get those same rights and I am american. I am not being hateful towards any one kind of people I am just simply saying, I went to college and I didn't qualify for financial aid because of some investments I have, well let me ask you something whats the point of an investment ? To make money well if you pull it out early you lose money so I worked to pay for school. Meanwhile this student from japan got full financial aid assistance, housing and food and even gas all from our government, and he has never paid a dime in taxes to this country. can someone explain this to me?

I think it was Matt who pointed out America is a nation of immigrants. Now I won't be so assuming as to speak for him, but I did point out that we are a nation of LEGAL: immigrants. The nation was founded upon, and still welcomes, LEGAL immigration. This is what has made America, and still defines America. Your point about Americans here by birth is well taken, but perhaps it is best to keep in mind what I stated above.

As for your Asian coed, I can't speak to it because there are too many variables in Education today. I also paid for every cent of my college education, yet I won't deny others financial aid to help them in their quest for higher education. Grants are another matter. Those who take advantage of grants should have to return to society the value of that grant in some form of work related to the education for which they utilized the grant.

Truly deserving students, who demonstrate academic excellence and financial hardship, should have the opportunity for higher education. In fact, all Americans deserve the opportunity to take advantage of higher education. It is how the student takes advantage of that opportunity that makes one successful or not in education. It is the individual that makes the difference. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Jeff]

I remember a cartoon of several years back. It was published when Reagan was debating what date to grant amnesty. It showed a reporter interviewing people. He was asking them what date they thought should use for amnesty. After getting several different answers he approached an Indian who was riding a horse. He asked the Indian what date he thought would be appropriate to grant amnesty. The Indian replied 1492.

Even the ancestors of the Indians came here from elsewhere. The biggest and an important difference is that some people come here legally and others come here illegally. We live in a nation of laws and law breakers. There are few people who have not broken some law, when you include speeding and jaywalking. The breaking of laws is showing disrespect to the law. People should show respect for society and its laws.

We need immigration. We could allow many more immigrants to come here legally if it were not for the illegal ones. We need to enforce whatever laws society wishes to put in place. That would give priority to those who want to come here legally. They would not have to compete with those that choose to cheat the system.

[brien]

Quote by: Jeff I remember a cartoon of several years back. It was published when Reagan was debating what date to grant amnesty. It showed a reporter interviewing people. He was asking them what date they thought should use for amnesty. After getting several different answers he approached an Indian who was riding a horse. He asked the Indian what date he thought would be appropriate to grant amnesty. The Indian replied 1492. Even the ancestors of the Indians came here from elsewhere. The biggest and an important difference is that some people come here legally and others come here illegally. We live in a nation of laws and law breakers. There are few people who have not broken some law, when you include speeding and jaywalking. The breaking of laws is showing disrespect to the law. People should show respect for society and its laws. We need immigration. We could allow many more immigrants to come here legally if it were not for the illegal ones. We need to enforce whatever laws society wishes to put in place. That would give priority to those who want to come here legally. They would not have to compete with those that choose to cheat the system.

Excellent post Jeff. Especially the part about what the"Indian" said. LOL on that one!

[MarsBarKid]

Didnt I read that the offical language of the USA will soon be Spanish?

Also read somewhere - Spanish speakers by birth or heritage outnumber English speakers already.

Also that push is on to return it to Mexico.

[SteveA]

Quote by: thatoneguy00 Steve its like you took the words right out of my mouth. This is definately the truth, and ya know what the funny thing about it is though, WE CAN'T DO A DAMN THING ABOUT IT except for shutup and go to work and pay the irs so politicians get thier paycheck. Thats just sad that it is like this.

There's more than most people realize that can be done, but yes, you've got to be willing to draw a line and say the 'buck stops here' on occassion. It's sad though that this is so discouraged not simply by government but too many of its zealous followers as well.

In CA, something like 70% of the voters amended the CA state constitution to deny many public service to illegal immigrants (not legal ones) and the government for all intents and purposes simply ignored it! That's tyranny by most any definition I can think of. The amendment process here rewrites the state constitution and removes from the hands of the justice department, the legislation etc. It's simply a command to government without options to ignore it, yet they effectively ignored it anyway - the reason why? We don't bother to even enforce the constitution. The way I see it is that if you sign an agreement with a service provider, and pay them money to do a job, and they blow it off, the contract is null and void and you can even expect to be repaid. Of course, noones going to get anything back other than paper. The damage is already done and can't be fixed but you can at least pick up the pieces at some point and move on ... we'll see how long it takes for this stuff to finally sink into a few heads.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: MarsBarKid Didnt I read that the offical language of the USA will soon be Spanish? Also read somewhere - Spanish speakers by birth or heritage outnumber English speakers already. Also that push is on to return it to Mexico.

Hispanics (which is all spanish speaking people) are still a minority to Whites in the US as far as I know.

[Logjam]

Quote by: drgilbert4 Lets just annex Mexico. In a few short years we could make them productive. Just look what we have done for Massachusetts!!!!!

The trouble is thing's will probably go the other way. Mexico may annex California, New Mexico, Nevada.....naw not Vegas; and Arizona. As the hords of Mexicans invade those states they vote in larger and larger blocks. Who knows what they could do.

Could a Mexican governor of say, Arizona open the border and let the Mexicans flow in? Sure he could. Could he then secede from the US? Sure he could. Could the Mexicans run Californias from California? Maybe. I sure as hell left the state. They are calling California, Mexifornia; and for good reason.

Mexicans in of themselves aren't bad people; least not all of them are. (Some are very bad indeed.) but they bring with them their oppressed attitude of government control. I don't think that they respect the law, or the government. In Mexico the government is the source of evil which effects their relationship to democracy.