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fushigi · Jan 2, 2006, 03:36 am

Voters in November will vote whether to limit affirmative action in university admissions and government hiring.

Affirmative Action Ban Ordered in Mich.

A small step forward for racial equality in Michigan.

tinybear · Jan 2, 2006, 10:09 am

Why retain affirmative action at all? It's just an euphemism for state-sponsored racial inequality.

SteveA · Jan 2, 2006, 11:48 pm

This is a victory for equal rights. It remains to be seen what happens at the polls though. Does anyone find it paradoxical that it was Democrats that opposed this? Don't they trumpet against discrimination ... but just like many Republicans, when it comes to living up to the rhetoric, they ignore their principles and prefer buying votes from special interest groups.

I thought I remembered something similar in California and there was actually very large support for it ... dang, I wish I could remember exactly what it was about or what happened to it. I'm probably getting Alzheimers but if I remember correctly we had something like 70% popular support for declaring government questionairres that asked for racial information as illegal. Maybe someone else remembers something about that or what happened to it.

tinybear · Jan 3, 2006, 05:16 am

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/michigan/

fushigi · Jan 4, 2006, 01:53 am

Is this right? Nobody on this site supports affirmative action? In that case, it's probably got a shorter life expectancy than I thought in the U.S.

tinybear · Jan 4, 2006, 03:18 am

Affirmative action is no longer justified. Nowadays there are African Americans succeeding in their own chosen professions on merit and without any help. Affirmative action infringes all sense of equality and justice. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said in 2003 that she hoped that the day will soon come when affirmative action is no longer necessary. Well, the day has come, folks.

SteveA · Jan 4, 2006, 03:22 am

Quote:

Quote by: fushigi

Is this right? Nobody on this site supports affirmative action? In that case, it's probably got a shorter life expectancy than I thought in the U.S.

Affirmative action is racial discrimination. It amounts to treating people unequally based upon irrelevant personal traits, yet it's done under the guise of equality.

I was told straight to my face that I couldn't get a nice paying job once simply because I was white and they already their 25% quota of whites. I've seen government contracts rejected to a company because the owner of the company wasn't the correct race or sex. It's discrimination pure and simple. Racial quotas were declared unconstitutional since then but affirmative action is the same things but without as many hard rules. They have check boxes on government forms that ask your race. Even as "progressive" as California is, even many minorities think that idea is bad. (I don't know about support among minorities here regarding affirmative action though but it's dropped over time. I think many realize it's a tool that keeps them dependent on (enslaved to) government and even the Supreme Court acknowledged that it's only intended as temporary)

Can anyone access this link?
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/const.html

It's supposedly the Constitution of California, but I can't access it. Or can anyone else find an alternate listing for the CA Constitution? I'm almost certain there are state constitional reasons for affirmative action being illegal.

Osborn F Enready · Jan 4, 2006, 08:47 am

Well said Steve, I agree.

Disinterested · Jan 4, 2006, 01:32 pm

Quote:

Quote by: tinybear

Affirmative action is no longer justified. Nowadays there are African Americans succeeding in their own chosen professions on merit and without any help. Affirmative action infringes all sense of equality and justice. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said in 2003 that she hoped that the day will soon come when affirmative action is no longer necessary. Well, the day has come, folks.

Your view is dangerously ignorant of reality.

tinybear · Jan 4, 2006, 01:56 pm

How so?

Disinterested · Jan 4, 2006, 01:59 pm

If you truly believe that the average African-American has the same opportunity as the average white person in this country, you're ignorant. The dangerous part comes in when you further remove mechanisms by which oppressed minorities may have equal footing. In every society throughout history, vast distortions in the concentration of socio-economic power and wealth have resulted in unrest and revolution.

tinybear · Jan 4, 2006, 02:04 pm

Hey, you think Morgan Freeman and Jaimie Fox won those Oscars just 'cos of affirmative action? Or the Williams sisters won those Grand Slams 'cos they were assisted by affirmative action? C'mon. They won on merit.

Disinterested · Jan 4, 2006, 02:23 pm

Not sure if you're being sincere or sarcastic in your reply since this is the internet, but if you believe that your anecdote regarding Morgan Freeman, Jaimie Fox, and the Williams sisters is indicative of African-American and white equal footing, my claim that you are ignorant remains. Ironically (or perhaps not) you highlight endeavors that African Americans have excelled at (entertainment and sports) because many other avenues have been shut to them for so long (higher education, career advancement, executive level positions) which is why affirmative action was created in the first place.

Thus, if you are being sincere you are actually defending my argument not yours unknowingly.

tinybear · Jan 4, 2006, 02:27 pm

Yeah, I suppose Colin Powell and Condie Rice got to where they are by affirmative action, didn't they?

Disinterested · Jan 4, 2006, 02:34 pm

Since you're evading the main question, let me ask it of you in no uncertain terms. Please reply with a yes or no answer: "Do you believe that the average African American has the same opportunities at birth in this country as the average white person does?"

tinybear · Jan 4, 2006, 03:11 pm

No, but with over half a century of affirmative action what can be done for them has been done and some of them have risen to high positions on his/her own merits without relying on affirmative action. Besides affirmative action leads to dependency. It's like feeding them opium and indeed it's an insult to them and an injustice to other races. Hence I say the time has come to stop affirmative action. It no longer serves a useful purpose. It should end. Now.

Disinterested · Jan 4, 2006, 03:18 pm

Thank you for answering my question.

Osborn F Enready · Jan 4, 2006, 04:33 pm

We all have the same opprotunities, if we aren't afraid to call thing's like we see them LOUD and CLEAR.

Yes, there will always be different wage classes, and there will always be one who makes more than another, even with the same skills and all other things equal. However, it is people like Rosa Parks that make a difference, as they refuse to take anymore, no matter what the cost, and aren't afraid to speak up OR speak out!

If you apply for a job, and suspect bias, PROTEST THE DECISION!

If you get skipped over, STAND UP, DEMAND TO BE RECOGNIZED.

If you are asked to piss in a bottle because the state says so, REFUSE IT, and DEMAND to be treated as INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty.

Every single choice you make, every single day, affects society.

Next time you are in line at the store, and it is your turn, and they ask for your zip code and EXPECT an answer and refuse to proceed until you do, tell them no. Tell them that is why you are paying in cash (if you are) and its none of their damn business. WATCH the other peoples faces. HOW are they affected? Everytime I do it, I almost always get a "right on" or the next person says the same thing, or "yea, what he said!"......

We are all being skipped over, unless you are extremely gifted, know people, or are good at performing services that people in power place high value on ( blowjobs to blowhards, they promote and further their own.)

There are a multitude of reasons why blacks are a majority in pro-sports, as well as several reasons why affirmative action is reverse racism, though wrongs WERE committed in the past. The point is, fairness can only be acheived through a level field, which is what we are supposed to be all about right, is that not what slaves and women sought in the first place? Equality, not reparations, or equally unjust treatment in settlement.

We can not free individual minds, but we can help those who want to learn, and open the door for those who are afraid to voice their opinion first, if we have the heart, will and gravitas to actually do it when the time comes that you should, to set an example by leading by example.

Next time you are watching the news and get pissed, STOP, get on the net, and write your representative and tell them what YOU think.

The man who refuses to deal with politics, is dealt with by politics.

Disinterested · Jan 4, 2006, 04:51 pm

That's nice ideology, but it's not the reality. Affirmative Action is one program intended to help level the playing field. Are you also opposed to "Head Start" since it targets minority socio-economically disadvantaged children?

someguymp3 · Jan 4, 2006, 05:24 pm

Disinterested clearly the only sane one in here. Props.

African Americans are still not on an equal footing, this is one of the more effective ways to re-adress that imbalance.

Williams sisters proving America has full and complete equality of opportunity. Brillaint

Jan 2, 2006, 03:36 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
fushigi Hot Lava Location: Beijing Posts: 2,414	Affirmative Action in Trouble in Michigan Voters in November will vote whether to limit affirmative action in university admissions and government hiring. Affirmative Action Ban Ordered in Mich. A small step forward for racial equality in Michigan. "What truth endures beneath the flaming stream?" -- A Volcano, Bartolome de Las Casas, Inferno de Marsaya, 1536 Last edited by fushigi; Jan 2, 2006 at 04:19 am.

Jan 2, 2006, 11:48 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
SteveA Anarcho-capitalist Posts: 1,972	This is a victory for equal rights. It remains to be seen what happens at the polls though. Does anyone find it paradoxical that it was Democrats that opposed this? Don't they trumpet against discrimination ... but just like many Republicans, when it comes to living up to the rhetoric, they ignore their principles and prefer buying votes from special interest groups. I thought I remembered something similar in California and there was actually very large support for it ... dang, I wish I could remember exactly what it was about or what happened to it. I'm probably getting Alzheimers but if I remember correctly we had something like 70% popular support for declaring government questionairres that asked for racial information as illegal. Maybe someone else remembers something about that or what happened to it. Freedom - are you man enough to handle it? If so, join us in New Hampshire! The Free State Project ("Liberty in our lifetime!") www.freestateproject.com Last edited by SteveA; Jan 3, 2006 at 12:01 am.

Jan 4, 2006, 01:53 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
fushigi Hot Lava Location: Beijing Posts: 2,414	Is this right? Nobody on this site supports affirmative action? In that case, it's probably got a shorter life expectancy than I thought in the U.S. "What truth endures beneath the flaming stream?" -- A Volcano, Bartolome de Las Casas, Inferno de Marsaya, 1536

Jan 4, 2006, 08:47 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Well said Steve, I agree. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jan 4, 2006, 04:33 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	We all have the same opprotunities, if we aren't afraid to call thing's like we see them LOUD and CLEAR. Yes, there will always be different wage classes, and there will always be one who makes more than another, even with the same skills and all other things equal. However, it is people like Rosa Parks that make a difference, as they refuse to take anymore, no matter what the cost, and aren't afraid to speak up OR speak out! If you apply for a job, and suspect bias, PROTEST THE DECISION! If you get skipped over, STAND UP, DEMAND TO BE RECOGNIZED. If you are asked to piss in a bottle because the state says so, REFUSE IT, and DEMAND to be treated as INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. Every single choice you make, every single day, affects society. Next time you are in line at the store, and it is your turn, and they ask for your zip code and EXPECT an answer and refuse to proceed until you do, tell them no. Tell them that is why you are paying in cash (if you are) and its none of their damn business. WATCH the other peoples faces. HOW are they affected? Everytime I do it, I almost always get a "right on" or the next person says the same thing, or "yea, what he said!"...... We are all being skipped over, unless you are extremely gifted, know people, or are good at performing services that people in power place high value on ( blowjobs to blowhards, they promote and further their own.) There are a multitude of reasons why blacks are a majority in pro-sports, as well as several reasons why affirmative action is reverse racism, though wrongs WERE committed in the past. The point is, fairness can only be acheived through a level field, which is what we are supposed to be all about right, is that not what slaves and women sought in the first place? Equality, not reparations, or equally unjust treatment in settlement. We can not free individual minds, but we can help those who want to learn, and open the door for those who are afraid to voice their opinion first, if we have the heart, will and gravitas to actually do it when the time comes that you should, to set an example by leading by example. Next time you are watching the news and get pissed, STOP, get on the net, and write your representative and tell them what YOU think. The man who refuses to deal with politics, is dealt with by politics. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

Jan 2, 2006, 10:09 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	Why retain affirmative action at all? It's just an euphemism for state-sponsored racial inequality.

Jan 3, 2006, 05:16 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	http://www.npr.org/news/specials/michigan/

Jan 4, 2006, 03:18 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	Affirmative action is no longer justified. Nowadays there are African Americans succeeding in their own chosen professions on merit and without any help. Affirmative action infringes all sense of equality and justice. Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said in 2003 that she hoped that the day will soon come when affirmative action is no longer necessary. Well, the day has come, folks.

Jan 4, 2006, 01:56 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	How so?

Jan 4, 2006, 01:59 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Disinterested Go Speed Racer Location: In my mind Posts: 361	If you truly believe that the average African-American has the same opportunity as the average white person in this country, you're ignorant. The dangerous part comes in when you further remove mechanisms by which oppressed minorities may have equal footing. In every society throughout history, vast distortions in the concentration of socio-economic power and wealth have resulted in unrest and revolution.

Jan 4, 2006, 02:04 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	Hey, you think Morgan Freeman and Jaimie Fox won those Oscars just 'cos of affirmative action? Or the Williams sisters won those Grand Slams 'cos they were assisted by affirmative action? C'mon. They won on merit.

Jan 4, 2006, 02:23 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Disinterested Go Speed Racer Location: In my mind Posts: 361	Not sure if you're being sincere or sarcastic in your reply since this is the internet, but if you believe that your anecdote regarding Morgan Freeman, Jaimie Fox, and the Williams sisters is indicative of African-American and white equal footing, my claim that you are ignorant remains. Ironically (or perhaps not) you highlight endeavors that African Americans have excelled at (entertainment and sports) because many other avenues have been shut to them for so long (higher education, career advancement, executive level positions) which is why affirmative action was created in the first place. Thus, if you are being sincere you are actually defending my argument not yours unknowingly.

Jan 4, 2006, 02:27 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	Yeah, I suppose Colin Powell and Condie Rice got to where they are by affirmative action, didn't they?

Jan 4, 2006, 02:34 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Disinterested Go Speed Racer Location: In my mind Posts: 361	Since you're evading the main question, let me ask it of you in no uncertain terms. Please reply with a yes or no answer: "Do you believe that the average African American has the same opportunities at birth in this country as the average white person does?"

Jan 4, 2006, 03:11 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
tinybear Volcanic Erupter Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 7,272	No, but with over half a century of affirmative action what can be done for them has been done and some of them have risen to high positions on his/her own merits without relying on affirmative action. Besides affirmative action leads to dependency. It's like feeding them opium and indeed it's an insult to them and an injustice to other races. Hence I say the time has come to stop affirmative action. It no longer serves a useful purpose. It should end. Now.

Jan 4, 2006, 03:18 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Disinterested Go Speed Racer Location: In my mind Posts: 361	Thank you for answering my question.

Jan 4, 2006, 04:51 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Disinterested Go Speed Racer Location: In my mind Posts: 361	That's nice ideology, but it's not the reality. Affirmative Action is one program intended to help level the playing field. Are you also opposed to "Head Start" since it targets minority socio-economically disadvantaged children?

Jan 4, 2006, 05:24 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
someguymp3 Molten Ash Posts: 100	Disinterested clearly the only sane one in here. Props. African Americans are still not on an equal footing, this is one of the more effective ways to re-adress that imbalance. Williams sisters proving America has full and complete equality of opportunity. Brillaint