Iraqis want us out, says US general

[tusaki]

Sure, I agree. But I don't think you can consider the forces in Japan and Germany 'occupation' forces, since both Japan and Germany are sovereign nations. You were there to help them and they were right to thank you. As should I: "thank you!".

Now get the hell out of Iraq (*hug*)

[tusaki]

Quote by: Logjam Yeah, have you noticed how badly the Chinese have been treating Japanese lately? Throwing rocks at their cars and embassies, etc.. The Japanese and Koreans were treated terribly by the Japanese in WWII and they remember it. Now, in their minds they are getting payback.

yeah, but it is amazing how much and how long they remember. I know of my grandparents still hating the germans, but my generation... The only thing we do is make fun of them, but not really hating them. In Azia, such things are remembered with much more clarity. Perhaps it has to do with the EU.

[Matt W]

You are a spinless liberal. You let brave Americans fight for your freedom, while you flip them the bird. You are less than a brave man, Matt. You are also a lousy American. Even if you disagree with the reasons that we go to war; any true American will support our fellow citizens while they are in battle.

Less of the insults and ignoring the facts, Logjam. Read what I said. Read where it says my location. I'm not American and nor would I want to be.

As for the mass graves, it really does get my goat how you blithely ignore the fact that you gave him the means to do so and are now claiming it has nothing to do with you. Supporting the enemy? No. Opening both eyes? Yes. Democracy is not all about one voice.

[Logjam]

Quote by: tusaki I don't think the enemy is really listening to the western world, so any influence by doves is neglicable. .

What!!! You, my friend are living in a dream world. The terrorists are listening to our news constantly. They read our papers. The even perform bombings timed to hit the evening news. (It's been said anyway.)

Saddam watch "Black Hawk Down" many times. He was convinced because of that film that we didn't have the guts to twart him. Under Clinton, we didn't. Uday was quoted as saying, "Bush is no Clinton". He was right.

The enemy is not stupid, and they listen closely to Ramsey Clark and those like them. They are also pulling for the left. They know well that if the left wins in the US, they win in Iraq.

How can you not understand and appreciate this very real fact? One of the axioms of war, "Never underestimate your enemy". Remember they are just as smart as we are, and they want to win just as badly. They miss little. (I wouldn't be surprised if they have agents reading these pages; they love Nono.....maybe it is Nono.

Currently we are winning. Bush is not going to give up. Clinton and Kerry would have given up long ago (in my opinion).

The two most unpopular presidents in the history of the United States were Thomas Jefferson (the embargo) and Lincoln (the "buffoon" in the White House). Interestingly these two presidents are considered the greatest presidents by many. I think that George Bush is going to join their ranks.

[Logjam]

Quote by: Matt W Less of the insults and ignoring the facts, Logjam. Read what I said. Read where it says my location. I'm not American and nor would I want to be. As for the mass graves, it really does get my goat how you blithely ignore the fact that you gave him the means to do so and are now claiming it has nothing to do with you. Supporting the enemy? No. Opening both eyes? Yes. Democracy is not all about one voice.

Ahh, I'm sorry. I missed that you are British. (I think I've made that mistake before.) How do you like your freedom? You like it you say?

You are welcome. :)

Oh, I just heard on the radio this minute. More mass graves found in Iraq.

As for giving Saddam means to kill all of those folks? What are you saying? Those people where killed with Soviet weapons....or Chinese; I haven't handled any. The Iraqis use AK-47's.

You are probably alluding to the anthrax that we gave to Saddam. We certainly did that. We did to after his request. He said that he was working on an antidote. When we gave it to him it was in accordance with our national interests.

British, eh. How do you like living in a Third World Country? :confused:

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Logjam You are a spinless liberal. You let brave Americans fight for your freedom, while you flip them the bird. You are less than a brave man, Matt. You are also a lousy American. Even if you disagree with the reasons that we go to war; any true American will support our fellow citizens while they are in battle.

A lot of Americans DO support the troops. They know that sometimes troops die and that is the cost of going to war. The difference is that THEY don't want our soldiers to die for no good reason. You don't seem to have a problem with this as long as it is Bush doing it. It looks to me like you are actually loyal to the president MORE than you are to the country which kind of makes you sound like a right wing drugstore cowboy and nothing matters more to you than Bush. I find your immediate and repetitive use of the term "liberal" to be ample proof of that.

I'm not saying this to defend Matt W, as he doesn't want or need my help. I'm just saying I find penny ante patriotism and personal insults directed at ANYONE to be offensive. Do you think you can tone down the insults?

[Matt W]

Ahh, I'm sorry. I missed that you are British. (I think I've made that mistake before.) How do you like your freedom? You like it you say? You are welcome. Oh, I just heard on the radio this minute. More mass graves found in Iraq. As for giving Saddam means to kill all of those folks? What are you saying? Those people where killed with Soviet weapons....or Chinese; I haven't handled any. The Iraqis use AK-47's. You are probably alluding to the anthrax that we gave to Saddam. We certainly did that. We did to after his request. He said that he was working on an antidote. When we gave it to him it was in accordance with our national interests. British, eh. How do you like living in a Third World Country?

Nationalistic BS, Logjam. You like living in America? Oh, you're welcome...

Tone down the insults and the ranting, and try and address the facts. You were doing quite well until you launched into the dull 'all liberals are anti-American' mode. Face it - democracy isn't about propaganda and reciting the same thing over and over again. Everybody questions, everybody gets a say - whether you like it or not.

Shame you're not a facist, isn't it? Have a nice day now....

[tusaki]

No, I think Bush will join the ranks of Reagan and the likes... Loved by many, despised by many...

I understand that they have access to our media, but they (a) denounce our systems and (b) they consider the ones in power to be realists. (at least, considering the terrorist subjects in my country). So yeah, they might consider Howard Dean to be advantageous to their goals, however, they also know that such a person will never gain any power whatsoever. Also, I don't consider it a matter of "loosing" Iraq to the insurgents. The problem with terrorist groups, like the Mafia, is that they fight amongst themselves and they have different goals. There are terrorists in Iraq who just fight because they hate the West, because they hate the Us or because they hate the interim government. or Because they hate the Shiites. There is no one 'terrorist'.

On the other hand, they have learned from Vietnam. They know about our weakness. Yet this weakness is the very principal we stand for. If the only way to stand against the terrorists is to give up our principals (freedom of speech, compassion), then what is the worth of standing against them at the first place?

[Logjam]

Quote by: Matt W Less of the insults and ignoring the facts, Logjam.

I wasn't trying to be insulting. I was, rather stating an opinon. Since you are British, I cannot criticize you for being unAmerican, or a bad citizen. You are not, however; a very good ally.

Blaire is though. I like the guy. I also liked Thatcher...sorry she's so ill. I've lived in England for years. (Been their twice for over a six month stay. and several short month or two stays since.) I found most British to be hard chargers and very proud of their WWII and Cold War service. I love the pubs and the debate found therein.

I rather like the British. They certainly know more about their history than most Americans know about ours. Americans, you see, are too busy making money. I also like the English theatre. And of course, the wonderful museums.

I don't understand why the left has risen to be so powerful on the Sainted Isle. You, sir, are one of them. Are you also a socialist? England would be a much richer country today if they had not wasted so much money nationalizing industry, airlines, etc..in the 50's and 60's.

I guess you supported the Soviets. Hmmmm. Leftism is almost impossible for me to understand, it's such a vapid, useless philosophy. So, I'll ask you. Why are you such a lefty?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: tusaki The problem with terrorist groups, like the Mafia, is that they fight amongst themselves and they have different goals.

Excellent point, and one I had not considered. They ARE like the old-style Mob. Place the word "family" after the Sunnis, the Kurds, etc. and change the place from Iraq to Chicago and you have a LOT of similarities.

Of course, the mob's AIM was a lot better. These insurgents seem to be killing a lot more civilians than the Mafia ever did.

[Matt W]

*shrugs* I'll answer that another time. For now, we're off-topic.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: Logjam Wars are never easy. The Revolutionary War was considered by many impossible for us to win. It took eight years (1775 to 1783). You, Nono would have been a Tory. Certainly it'd be uncharastic of you to join the Patriots. You would have been a Copperhead durning the Civil War. You would have been a CO in both WWI and II. During Vietnam you would, of course, have sided with the Communist NVA. You're a great patriot, Nono. With citizens like you who needs enemies?

And you sir, are a jackass during this war. Sorry, but your insulting tone demands a similar response. It's your mindset that cost us over 58,000 dead GI's during Vietnam, where, if we listened to people like you, we'd still be fighting. Do you really think things would be so much different there if we had won? What total crap. What arrogance. Do you really believe that we can force on the Iraqi's any more or any less than they want for themselves?? There's an old saying, "you fight the battles that need to be fought". This one clearly didn't, at least not by us. What are you going to say to the families of the dead GI's when the new Islamic Republic, installed at such a horrendous cost in lives and dollars says, "Thanks, now please leave"??

[RickSp]

All Log has added to this thread thus far is bluster, misinformation and insults. His references to the American Revolution are particularly preposterous as he continues to side with the imperial occupying army. His assertions that the issue is all media spin and not the Iraqi disgust with the occupation is equally absurd. Arrogance and braggadocio are poor substitutes for insight.

[oranged]

Quote by: fushigi Actually, I don't think it's as matter-of-fact as all that. Not all countries ask for foreign troops to leave immediately. European countries were all too glad to have U.S. military bases vis-a-vis the Soviet threat, Japan was also happy to have the U.S. foot their security bill and use the savings to bolster their economy, and how many times have we heard Hamid Karzai ask for more, not less troops? If Iraqi popular opinion is really that overwhelmingly against the U.S. troop presence, it's not a very strong endorsement for how the USAF is handling things. Especially considering how many lives Iraqi-on-Iraqi suicide bombings have taken since the occupation and the memory of the Sunni Baathists' bloody reign over a country that's 65% non-Sunni. Hell, if I was an Iraqi, I'd be wanting all the security I could get, no matter who provided it. But wanting the U.S. troops out? Anyone seen the movie Crash? Reminds me of the black lady stuck in her burning car refusing help from a white cop because she hated him so much.

The US troops don't provide security, at all. They haven't protected anyone. Their just occupying, and truly conquering Iraq. They kill civilians, supress protest and are no different then conquerors of the past. If they pull out, the violence will still be there, but it will decrease.

[RickSp]

Quote by: oranged The US troops don't provide security, at all. They haven't protected anyone. Their just occupying, and truly conquering Iraq. They kill civilians, supress protest and are no different then conquerors of the past. If they pull out, the violence will still be there, but it will decrease.

The longer we have occupied Iraq the larger the insurgency has grown. That might suggest something to anyone who bothers to think about the situation for more than a second or two. The occupation is the only thing that unites the various elements of the insurgency. The occupation feeds the insurgency. The Iraqis want us out. The American people want us out. We should leave.

[fushigi]

I have to say I agree with Logjam on one point. There are places where foreign troops are hated, especially GI's in ROK, but if you cut through the sensational journalism, they're tolerated if not admired. For one thing, they're very good customers for local business.

But Logjam, what you haven't addressed is how do you account for all those opinion polls that show Iraqis want the troops out? And now the head of the JCOS admitting it?

Why don't Iraqis like U.S. troops the way civilians in other countries you've been stationed do?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: fushigi Why don't Iraqis like U.S. troops the way civilians in other countries you've been stationed do?

Well, aside from killing a lot of innocent people, the reason is simple. In other countries, GI's bring in a lot of money to spend on the local economy. In Iraq, the locals suspect, as I do, that the GI's are really there to remove a lot of money, as in maintain U.S. access to cheap oil. I don't think they believe, as some of our more gullible bushbots do, that the U.S. would really spend thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars to "bring democracy to Iraq" and then simply go home.

[Matt W]

But Logjam, what you haven't addressed is how do you account for all those opinion polls that show Iraqis want the troops out? And now the head of the JCOS admitting it?

Indeed. Logjam, your anecdotes are all very well, but this is the man who has all of the intelligence services at his disposal, as well as several thousand GIs on the ground telling him what they're encountering. He isn't "the media" or a "leftie" or any other meaningless label you'd care to throw around - he's the man with all the information at his fingertips. Care to comment?

[Nono]

Quote by: Logjam You are a spinless liberal.

Thanks for the compliment, Jam. Better than being a reactionary who relentlessly spins the facts.

[Matt W]

Nono - enough. This thread is drifting as is without more baiting.

Do not respond to me within this thread. Please PM myself or Sean if you have any questions.