House backs oil drilling in Alaskan refuge

[Chris]

Quote by: shield772 Property rights are sacred here, kinda the bedrock of the Constitution and the beliefs of the founding fathers. so yes barring a law I could site that would stop you I would have to live with it, convince you to stop, or move.

tman (or someone) in another thread about this said it should be up to only Alaskans. Or we don't have an argument in this. Well I say BS. This is called ANWR Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. INcase you didn't know National Parks and Refuges should and are debated on a National level.

[Chris]

Quote by: shield772 was anyone damaged no,

You don't know that do you? Outside of this debate, (off topic) People are wrongly accused every single day. Would like to see your reaction if you or someone in your family was wrongly accused of being a terrorist or aiding terrorists.

was it legal not sure, I do not pretend to know all laws I am not a lawyer I am a simple ex-cop trying to make it through life, I have opinions and I have knowledge, I know for example that the 911 commision chastised the President and the NSA for not doing this exact thing before 911, I know Clinton had the NSA doing the exact same thing during his term, I know i sometimes take extreme positions when y'all constantly attack the President and America for everything no matter the circumstances,

Attacking is one thing but being critical is another. If you are one of those people who thinks America has done no wrong than you have your head in the sand. Americans who are critical of America only want America to be a better place and fix its flaws. We don't hate America and we are not anti-American at all.

[shield772]

Would like to see your reaction if you or someone in your family was wrongly accused of being a terrorist or aiding terrorists.

who has been accused? and was it wrongly? and if the government talks about me in secret but does nothing about it for lack of evidence I have not been damaged by their suspicions I would only be damaged if someone leaked the fact that the government was secretly suspicious of me.

[Chris]

Lets move this debate to the "spying" thread please...

[pubmanager]

Quote by: shield772 I am gay and a christian, the duplicity of me goes on and on.

As a christian, you are instructed by God to look after the planet, a duty of stewardship, if I remember correctly. You are called to look after the animals and the birds.

Are you sure that destroying the natural habbitat of animals, whilst drilling to find a substance that through it's use will ultimately contribute to the destruction of the planet just so that you and yours can have cheap gas for your SUV's is what your God would want.

There is duplicity and hypocracy, you are guilty of both in this instance.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: |Chris| Thats nice. Guess you didn't get the memo that SUV's were less safe than normal cars. :rolleyes:

Crash protection in a collision: This is a function of things such as crumple zones, airbags, design characteristics, and finally, MASS. Larger vehicles will, all other things being the same, fare better in a collision. Seating height is another factor that can help you in a collision. If you're sitting up high in an SUV, you may fare better when another tall vehicle hits you. Most of the force may be directed lower, around your legs or even below. Also, truck based SUV's built on a ladder frame may have an advantage here. The frame acts as a huge side impact bar, and may prevent intrusion into the passenger compartment.

Collision avoidance: This is where cars usually have the advantage, especially cars with "sporty" performance and handling. Great braking will help you avoid a collision. Steady, competent emergency handling will go a long way to help you avoid a collision. Some cars just feel "glued to the road"

There is a difference between the two and this is why you shouldn’t drive like retards. Maybe we should spend more of our concentration on training drivers properly.

Yes, comparably sized SUV's usually get worse fuel economy, but many people make the mistake of comparing a small, economy car at 35 mpg to a large, versatile cargo carrying full-size SUV that gets 15 mpg. Sure, your car gets better fuel mileage, but does it do what you need done? If you have more than 4 passengers plus a lot of gear to carry, your non-SUV options are a station wagon or a minivan. So now you're down to maybe 20-25 mpg around town. The difference is still there, but narrowed somewhat.

FACT: Automobiles are responsible for less than 5% of all greenhouse gas emissions, and even less of the most harmful types. This is far less than nature itself produces. The very small percentage improvements we can make driving cars instead of SUV's is insignificant.

[bishop]

i'm sure if you pack an suv up with junk in the trunk, you'll also get worse gas mileage than normal.

[Technosoul]

Quote by: Apeman81 Time to start reducing our dependence on foreign oil.

Time to stop Bush and his uninformed objectives.

[Chris]

Quote by: jbarn19 Crash protection in a collision: This is a function of things such as crumple zones, airbags, design characteristics, and finally, MASS. Larger vehicles will, all other things being the same, fare better in a collision. Seating height is another factor that can help you in a collision. If you're sitting up high in an SUV, you may fare better when another tall vehicle hits you. Most of the force may be directed lower, around your legs or even below. Also, truck based SUV's built on a ladder frame may have an advantage here. The frame acts as a huge side impact bar, and may prevent intrusion into the passenger compartment. Collision avoidance: This is where cars usually have the advantage, especially cars with "sporty" performance and handling. Great braking will help you avoid a collision. Steady, competent emergency handling will go a long way to help you avoid a collision. Some cars just feel "glued to the road" There is a difference between the two and this is why you shouldn’t drive like retards. Maybe we should spend more of our concentration on training drivers properly. Yes, comparably sized SUV's usually get worse fuel economy, but many people make the mistake of comparing a small, economy car at 35 mpg to a large, versatile cargo carrying full-size SUV that gets 15 mpg. Sure, your car gets better fuel mileage, but does it do what you need done? If you have more than 4 passengers plus a lot of gear to carry, your non-SUV options are a station wagon or a minivan. So now you're down to maybe 20-25 mpg around town. The difference is still there, but narrowed somewhat. FACT: Automobiles are responsible for less than 5% of all greenhouse gas emissions, and even less of the most harmful types. This is far less than nature itself produces. The very small percentage improvements we can make driving cars instead of SUV's is insignificant.

Well by your logic we would ALL have to go out and buy a 6000 lb vehicle in order to be safe. Then only the people with the 8000 lb Hummers would be safer than all of us who have 6000 lb SUVs then we would all have to buy 8000 lb hummers, But then Hummer already popular, would have come out with the H 12.5 that weighs 10000 lbs and is bigger.

and then we would all have to buy one of those..... etc etc etc into infinity.

[Chris]

Quote by: jbarn19 FACT: Automobiles are responsible for less than 5% of all greenhouse gas emissions, and even less of the most harmful types. This is far less than nature itself produces. The very small percentage improvements we can make driving cars instead of SUV's is insignificant.

I am sure you have a source for this so-called fact?

[Osborn F Enready]

I don't think they should drill there.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: |Chris| Well by your logic we would ALL have to go out and buy a 6000 lb vehicle in order to be safe. Then only the people with the 8000 lb Hummers would be safer than all of us who have 6000 lb SUVs then we would all have to buy 8000 lb hummers, But then Hummer already popular, would have come out with the H 12.5 that weighs 10000 lbs and is bigger. and then we would all have to buy one of those..... etc etc etc into infinity.

My only question is; would you rather get hit at 50 MPH by an 8000 lb hummer with a car at 2500 lbs lower to the ground, or a 6000 lb SUV at equal height? That also pertains to a diesel that you won’t ever get off the roads.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: |Chris| I am sure you have a source for this so-called fact?

Yes I do. But what would be the point in giving it to you? I also have facts from scientist of the same caliber saying the opposite. So do I trust a brilliant scientist that says this or that?

The point is, unless you live in the wilderness off the land you aren’t a valid source to complain about pollution. You live in a house with STUFF that was made from a factory which gives off far more pollutants than my SUVs. Do you live in a cave? Or did they use wood and other materials to build your home. Did they build it by hand or use big machinery? Even if you live in the wilderness and are sitting at a cyber café, you are supporting pollution. Power plants don’t send off pollution?

You will not fix this in the near future, so let’s drill our own oil off our own land. I mean for good sakes it cost a ton to fill up my SUVs (well one is a big ass truck).

Good luck on the whole Ozone thing.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I don't think they should drill there.

Thank you for the in-depth reasoning…now I don’t want it either.

Sorry, I just had to say it.

[Pooeypants]

Quote by: jbarn19 My only question is; would you rather get hit at 50 MPH by an 8000 lb hummer with a car at 2500 lbs lower to the ground, or a 6000 lb SUV at equal height? That also pertains to a diesel that you won’t ever get off the roads.

I would rather that people don't drive around in such preposterously massive cars.

[brien]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I don't think they should drill there.

Osborn: I respect your decision. That said, I think it is a matter that should be put up for referendum in the next election. Let every voting American decide whether it is prudent to drill for oil in the preserve. It is supposedly land owned by the "people" so let the people decide what they wish to do with their land, should they not? This would remove all of the special interest pressure and political shennigans associated with a decison made by Congress that is better left up to those who can best decide for themeselves what is right or wrong with regard to land use that supposedly belongs to those who own the land.

It is my contention that only a elitist pretends to know better than others what is "best" for them. I am not accusing you of being an elistist for I know better of you, but I am accusing Congress of Elitism when they decide for the public what is best for them in this instance. And in this case, I think this is exactly what they have done. It doesn't matter to me whether Congress votes for drilling or against it. I am writing that they should turn the decision over to the American public and allow them decide through referendum. Simple, the citizens vote on the following question:

Do you, as a voting citizen, favor drilling for oil in the Artic National Wildlife Refuge, (ANWR) located the state of Alaska? Check this box

Do you, as a voting citizen, object to drilling for oil in the Artic National WIldlife Refuge, (ANWR) located the state of Alaska? Check this box.

One vote would lock both choices.

Simple enough? Fair enough. I believe so.

[brien]

Quote by: |Chris| Well by your logic we would ALL have to go out and buy a 6000 lb vehicle in order to be safe. Then only the people with the 8000 lb Hummers would be safer than all of us who have 6000 lb SUVs then we would all have to buy 8000 lb hummers, But then Hummer already popular, would have come out with the H 12.5 that weighs 10000 lbs and is bigger. and then we would all have to buy one of those..... etc etc etc into infinity.

Yep. All of which the owner's drive to the mall and fight for parking spaces.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: jbarn19 Quote by: |Chris| I am sure you have a source for this so-called fact? Yes I do. But what would be the point in giving it to you?

The point?
If you dont offer a reputable source for your claims, dont refer to them as facts. Call them opinions.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Let every voting American decide whether it is prudent to drill for oil in the preserve.

Who do you think should count the votes? The same voting machines who decided we need oil company reps in the white house? The same machines that decided our energy policies should involve Iraq?

[Matt W]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4549884.stm

Been blocked...on to the next battle...