Senate rejects reauthorization of USA Patriot Act

[grandpa]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...-top-headlines

WASHINGTON -- The Senate on Friday rejected attempts to reauthorize several provisions of the USA Patriot Act as infringing too much on Americans' privacy and liberty, dealing a huge defeat to the Bush administration and Republican leaders.

[jose]

A good step in the right direction, Well done

[Clarence]

Frist, R-Tenn., changed his vote at the last moment after seeing the critics would win. He decided to vote with the prevailing side so he could call for a new vote at any time. He immediately objected to an offer of a short term extension from Democrats, saying the House won't approve it and the president won't sign it. "We have more to fear from terrorism than we do from this Patriot Act," Frist warned. If the Patriot Act provisions expire, Republicans say they will place the blame on Democrats in next year's midterm elections. "In the war on terror, we cannot afford to be without these vital tools for a single moment," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "The time for Democrats to stop standing in the way has come."

I hope that another "terrorist attack" isn't in the works.

[Penman Shipp]

My own personal objection to the Patriot Act is the idea that citizens will so freely give up their basic rights when told that there is a threat, without inspecting for the actuality of the threat itself, or taking any personal responsibility for their own freedoms.

The real kicker for me was in someone's taking such a repressive piece of legislation - which targets the very core values our Founding Fathers fought for in establishing the nation - and then having the bald-faced audacity to call it " The Patriot Act " .

The word patriot comes from the Latin patriota "fellow-countryman" from the Greek patrios "of one's fathers. Well these very fathers worked together to achieve a document whose central idea was to limit and fetter any one man or interest from wresting power from the governed.

Even were we to suppose its purpose (the Patriot Act) was designed altruistically, the law itself may yet at any time be used to loosely categorize anyone who may be at odds with the wrong bureau or person and limit his/her rights or activities.

Were we to invest our government with power over our speech and our ideas we would first have to trust that it would never be abused.

Time and time again, throughout even recent history, we have been shown what can and will be done by those in whom we have entrusted power. Richard Nixon and his Enemies List. J. Edgar Hoover and his blackmail dossiers. There are many more.

It is my personal feeling that we as a nation of individuals lapsed broadly many years ago in our very conception of our relation to our government.

I feel too many now regard the government as a thing unto itself, upon which we depend for our leadership, our care and our conscience. Was it not meant instead to be a joint assembly of men we entrusted to go and represent us in the day-to-day administration of our own governing ?

All of these concerns have been expressed more eloquently by far wiser men than I.

We would do well to heed them.

" They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Benjamin Franklin

" There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty. " John Adams

" America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. " Abraham Lincoln

" Over grown military establishments are under any form of government inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty. " George Washington

" Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. " Thomas Jefferson

And perhaps most ironically:

" What luck for the rulers that men do not think. " Adolf Hitler


Penman Shipp

[Osborn F Enready]

I have to note one thing here......


There is a reason this happened.

It was called public outcry.
I, as many others, added our signatures to a petition demanding our representatives take action.

Let me clarify firstly, while I am a member of both "moveon.org" and a few other extremist groups, I do not support them. I am a member ONLY to receive their news mailings, and activist schedules.

However, it is thanks to organizations like Moveon.org and the ACLU that we had petitions ready to go, and easily accessible, with just a few keystrokes of signature and address required.

"Moveon" generated over 200,000 signatures in only two days, to help stop the Patriot Act. I am not aware of the ACLU's numbers, but they too helped in this fight IMMENSELY.

I would like to thank all of you who took the time to sign those petitions, and be active by calling or meeting with your reps on this matter. I would also like to urge all people to do more of this kind of thing, if they want to feel justified in saying they don't like the system, and want better.

Thanks liberty loving Americans.
May the fight live on, until our goals of liberty and justice are once again respected.

Peace.

[Clarence]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I have to note one thing here...... There is a reason this happened. It was called public outcry. I, as many others, added our signatures to a petition demanding our representatives take action.

Amen. The battle is just beginning folks. The men in power are not dumb. There are aces up sleeves. We must be vigilant and outspoken so that our representatives don't feel abandoned. This will help keep them from being bullied into another Patriot Act and other anti-american bs. I feel very relieved at the moment.

[Osborn F Enready]

Penman Shipp said:
The real kicker for me was in someone's taking such a repressive piece of legislation - which targets the very core values our Founding Fathers fought for in establishing the nation - and then having the bald-faced audacity to call it " The Patriot Act "

I say:
Amen to that brother! The ludicrous play on words there struck me the same way as soon as I read it. It gives much creedence to the idea that many politicians and lobbyists are of the same ilk, in the sense they always try to pass off bad legislation with pretty names that glorify the opposite of their intent.

Reminded me of the New Deal, and all of Roosevelts pretty words trying to hide his true intentions, which were socialist economics.

The only difference between Eugene Debs, the Indiana Canidate or the Socialist Party for President in 1912, and Roosevelt, is that Eugene OPENLY stated his partyline and economic beliefs.

The Patriot Act leaves me with nothing but questions......

Who wrote it, and at whose order?
Who were the proposers and main pushers?
How long has it been written, and what else lies in the basket that held this jewel that we haven't seen yet?

Ever since the failure of prohibition, the U.S. bipartisan government, has been trying to perfect the best way to lie to the American people through trial and error, as opposed to outright legislation.
They supported and endorsed a temp version of the Patriot Act, to gauge public appeal, and took notes on the outcry. The next proposal that effects the same ends, will come out polished, harder to see through thanks to 1000's more pages of legal-eze bullshit, and harder for the American people to judge on intelligently.

It is time to end this bi-partisan scham network.



Also....

Just noticed your a snow cone. Welcome to the forums, please keep all arms and legs inside the ride until it comes to a complete stop, and do not remove your safety belt until the man behind the curtain says so.

[Osborn F Enready]

Also, I like your name there Penmann. Original.....

[Milton Bradley]

Is this all provisions in the Patriot Act, as in it will fall off the radar screen, and be a memory of the past, or are we talking just some provisions that they thought were most objectionable?

[bishop]

Quote by: osborn It is time to end this bi-partisan scham network.

in their defense, this act would've been renewed had the democrats chosen not to filibuster.

just giving credit where credit is due..

[gr8fuldaniel]

I hope that another "terrorist attack" isn't in the works.

If we do get attacked by "terrorists" again, should we be suspicious if the attack is NOT against a Right-wing political target? I mean, they are the ones who are going after "the terrorists", right? If the attack is against "Blue" states, like 911 was, isnt that suspect? New York and Washington DC both voted about 90% each for Al Gore less than a year prior. Oh yeah, dont forget the anthrax terrorism against Dem leaders only. Hows that investigation going? Four years later?

Its important to identify your enemies before you go off like Don Quixote, attacking innocent sheep and such. Doncha know.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: MB Is this all provisions in the Patriot Act, as in it will fall off the radar screen, and be a memory of the past, or are we talking just some provisions that they thought were most objectionable?

No this only affects those tenets that were due to sunset in January.

EDIT: From the article:

If a compromise is not reached, the 16 Patriot Act provisions expire on Dec. 31

. These that will expire are some of the harshest, like:

They also supported new safeguards and expiration dates to the act's two most controversial parts: authorization for roving wiretaps, which allow investigators to monitor multiple devices to keep a target from evading detection by switching phones or computers; and secret warrants for books, records and other items from businesses, hospitals and organizations such as libraries.

[Osborn F Enready]

Bishop said:
in their defense, this act would've been renewed had the democrats chosen not to filibuster.

just giving credit where credit is due..


I say:
Yes, but, the only reason they did is due to mass public outcry to REVERSE what the democrats already allowed to be passed.

This is just them going back to do what SHOULD have been done in the beginning HAD THEY READ IT before passing it. (which was a failure of duty to oath, and obligation to the people.)

So yes, they did the right thing, after doing the wrong thing repeatedly, ONLY after the people literally barraged them with petititons, letters, calls and non-stop badgering.

How big of them....... :rolleyes: :eek:

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel If we do get attacked by "terrorists" again, should we be suspicious if the attack is NOT against a Right-wing political target? I mean, they are the ones who are going after "the terrorists", right? If the attack is against "Blue" states, like 911 was, isnt that suspect? New York and Washington DC both voted about 90% each for Al Gore less than a year prior. Oh yeah, dont forget the anthrax terrorism against Dem leaders only. Hows that investigation going? Four years later? Its important to identify your enemies before you go off like Don Quixote, attacking innocent sheep and such. Doncha know.

Hard not to sound like a cheerleader, but yeah, go Daniel. Take that NeoCons.


I'm still waiting for the NTSB investigation into those planes used on 9/11 to be made public. (Not that they ever will.) You know, like they show on television where they have the whole ship (or, all they can find) reconstructed in a hanger so the investigator can piece it all together for the American people.


I can remember watching several of these shows on National Geographic where they pieced the whole investigation together as a TV show, and attempted to provide answers (real, or imagined) to the American public. No such shows seem to be coming forth about the 9/11 event, and I'm fairly sure none ever will. I suspect that is telling of where the evidence would point, or that perhaps the evidence has been destroyed altoghether.


Yes, all traces of the Twin Towers crime scene is almost surely lost, but what about the Pentagon plane, where is the in depth investigation on that "plane"? Is this a clue that perhaps it was not a plane?

[bishop]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Bishop said: in their defense, this act would've been renewed had the democrats chosen not to filibuster. just giving credit where credit is due.. I say: Yes, but, the only reason they did is due to mass public outcry to REVERSE what the democrats already allowed to be passed. This is just them going back to do what SHOULD have been done in the beginning HAD THEY READ IT before passing it. (which was a failure of duty to oath, and obligation to the people.) So yes, they did the right thing, after doing the wrong thing repeatedly, ONLY after the people literally barraged them with petititons, letters, calls and non-stop badgering. How big of them....... :rolleyes: :eek:

i'm not giving the dems a pass at all.. but it is true that without them, the patriot act would be renewed in full. given all the bullshit that's gone on the past couple years, it's at least to see some good news for the american people.

feingold's always been against the patriot act.. i believe he opposed its passage in 2001.. (he's also thinking of running for president)

i signed every anti-patriot act that came my way. plus, i contacted all of my elected representatives (including the local ones in hopes that they wouldn't cooperate with the gestapo policies)..

if anything, it's at least heartening to see that at least one of the two major parties do pay attention to public opinion - even if the dems are about as corrupt as the republicans (i think they're less corrupt though)..

[GodBlessAmerica]

The vote was not final and comes up again.

All but one Democrat and a couple of Republicans were for limiting our ability to defend ourselves agaisnt terror, including replacing the Gorelick wall that separated the CIA and FBI from talking to each other regarding information they both might have.

This is one the President and Republicans should address to the people.
This is a shameless attempt to block the tools needed to defend Americans from another 9-11 hit by Democrats in an attempt to gain power back at any costs.

IMO, this is why the Democrats are going to soon be doomed to becoming a powerless third party.

Not getting this back up and going is dangerous for the USA.
We get hit, and the President will be able to point this out to the people and there will never be love for Democrats again, except from the enemies of America IMO.

[Strange Alchemy]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel If we do get attacked by "terrorists" again, should we be suspicious if the attack is NOT against a Right-wing political target? I mean, they are the ones who are going after "the terrorists", right? If the attack is against "Blue" states, like 911 was, isnt that suspect? New York and Washington DC both voted about 90% each for Al Gore less than a year prior. Oh yeah, dont forget the anthrax terrorism against Dem leaders only. Hows that investigation going? Four years later? Its important to identify your enemies before you go off like Don Quixote, attacking innocent sheep and such. Doncha know.

Who's paranoid now? I once heard someone say that the republicans are trying to advance the process of global warming because when the ice caps melt, it'll be the blue states that get flooded. This sounds kinda similar.

[Strange Alchemy]

Personally, I'll be glad to see the Patriot Act go. It scares the hell out of me. I figure I'm probably on some list because I read Catcher in the Rye in eleventh grade. But hey, the way I look at it, the Muslims won't be the flak-catchers forever. If the government suddenly decides to go after some other group, then it might be me getting pwned by the feds.

Oh, and the thing about the dems eventually going away...while it's a nice thought, it's not going to happen. The sad fact is that the politics of the masses are largely retaliatory. That's why a two-party system is prevalent. When asked about opinions, people will far more readily tell you what they don't like than what they do. The public gets tired of one party in power after a while and arbitrarily picks someone else. It's all pretty shallow.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel If we do get attacked by "terrorists" again, should we be suspicious if the attack is NOT against a Right-wing political target? I mean, they are the ones who are going after "the terrorists", right? If the attack is against "Blue" states, like 911 was, isnt that suspect? New York and Washington DC both voted about 90% each for Al Gore less than a year prior. Oh yeah, dont forget the anthrax terrorism against Dem leaders only. Hows that investigation going? Four years later? Its important to identify your enemies before you go off like Don Quixote, attacking innocent sheep and such. Doncha know.

Quote by: Strange Alchemy Who's paranoid now? I once heard someone say that the republicans are trying to advance the process of global warming because when the ice caps melt, it'll be the blue states that get flooded. This sounds kinda similar.

I didn't see the alleged disconnect in Daniels reasoning. Which part did you find flawed?


When I think of paranoid behavior, I think of people who think everybody is out to get them like Bush, and his NeoCon supporters, who all regurgitate the same talking points, on topic, or not, at all challenges put before them.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, WMD's, Saddam's a bad guy, Osamma did it, terrorists are still out to get us, but really, what fuels this blind faith support for George Jr., and his policies? What is the true requirment to become one of the Fedayeen Bush?


(edit) After reading your other response, I think I might have been a little harsh, but you certainly have some conflicting views about where blame should be placed, and who is paranoid.(edit)

[Osborn F Enready]

Bishop said:
i signed every anti-patriot act that came my way. plus, i contacted all of my elected representatives (including the local ones in hopes that they wouldn't cooperate with the gestapo policies)..

if anything, it's at least heartening to see that at least one of the two major parties do pay attention to public opinion

I say:
I'll give you that, I agree there. I also have to commend you for taking action with your reps and the petitions. Glad to see people taking action and being part of the process. I wish more would.