Canada shrugs off U.S. warning

[Nono]

http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/New...CS-USA-COL.XML

OTTAWA/SURREY, British Columbia (Reuters) - The United States made an unprecedented foray into Canada's election campaign on Tuesday, warning politicians not to bash Washington in their bid to win the January 23 election. But an unapologetic Liberal Prime Minister Paul Martin responded immediately by saying "c'est la vie" -- that's life -- if the United States did not like his remarks, and he would not accept anyone telling him he cannot defend his country. (...)

Jeez, I dunno. Martin had better watch his damned step. Big Brother already has Hugo Chávez in His sights. Them Canadians better not imagine He can't whup them at the same time.

[Autolykos]

Vive la difference!

- Rob

[ThisNameIsTaken]

Our relationship with the US is going to be a significant issue in this election. The Softwood Lumber dispute and the American's attempt to influence our laws has had a lot of people offended and disturbed. At first the Liberal's tended to avoid the subject but now Martin's got the balls to say what most Canadians are thinking which is We aren't American's we don't want to be Americans, and we won't vote in a government who kisses American ass. Plain and simple.

I don't doubt that some Canadians do fear the US, but none the less we aren't going to stop being us.

With Washington's recent trade history there has also been a rush to encourage more trade with other nations, maybe Washington will come to realize that Canadian products might be worth treating Canadians with respect.Which means respecting our sovereignty not threatning us over potential Canadian law changes, not getting involved in our elections and following international trade laws that they've agreed too.

[Nono]

Quote by: ThisName Maybe Washington will come to realize that Canadian products might be worth treating Canadians with respect.

Don't hold your breath. Canadians have always been the US's main drawers of water and hewers of wood. In your own province of BC, for example, Dave Barrett became premier in 1972 despite attempts by the CIA to manipulate the election.

The Liberals may be talking big at the moment because there's an election on. But they're a pretty pliable bunch (see NAFTA). As the Canadian poet Joe Wallace once put it:

Ours is a sovereign nation
Bows to no foreign will,
But whenever they cough in Washington
They spit on Parliament Hill.

[Polish/English]

Every American invasion of Canada in the past has been beaten by disciplined Canadian and British forces. The Americans can kick and scream all they like but their armed forces can't threaten anyone, there soldiers aren't even disciplined enough to defeat small Somalian militia units. Long live Canadian political independance!

[Nono]

Quote by: barn I know a few ex-Canadian military personnel that came to fight with us because your military sucks.

I know one who, on the same grounds, went off to kill babies as a merc in Africa (this is true, rest assured).

I just love your list of national virtues there, barn. I've always had the impression that ever since they got their asses kicked in their abortive invasion of Canada in 1812, the Americans have looked north with a mixture of resentment and bewilderment: "Hey, we offered y'all Manifest Destiny, ya buncha ingrates, an' y'all jes doan wan' it. Caynt be!"

To such people, any and all criticism is destructive. But relax. Paul Martin actually likes you just fine. :)

[Iscariot]

Canada has a proportionally worse record than the United States on reining in greenhouse gas emissions.

Wow, this I did not know. So much for self-righteousness.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Iscariot Wow, this I did not know. So much for self-righteousness.

You didn't know it because it isn't true, at least according to this site and image: -



http://www.environmentalindicators.c...tors/5gree.htm

Though this could be out of date data.

[Iscariot]

You know there is more than one type of greenhouse gas...

[jbarn19]

Jbarn please reply via PM, if you are going to reply. We do not want to drag this thread off topic.

Cheers Chris

[tivodan1116]

The fact that the mainstream American media hasn't picked this up tells you how much we give a crap about Canadian politics.

Hell, my wife's family is Canadian, she grew up 45 minutes from the capital (Ottawa, not Toronto for all the Americans who live more then 30 miles south of me), I can hop on a ferry and be in Toronto in 2 hours, or I can be across the bridge to Niagara Falls, ONT in just over an hour.... Despite all this, I don't care about politics in Canada in the slightest, as long as they keep sending us Timbits and Rush music.

That makes me think of the scene in Canadian Bacon where they go to RCMP "headquarters" (a cabin) and tie up a Mountie so they can make him talk. The conversation goes like this (they are trying to find out where the RCMP took one of the female characters):

Mountie: Umm they've taken her to the capital.
Boomer (John Candy): The capital Toronto.
Mountie: Actually, the capital of Canada is Ottawa.
Boomer: Yeah, right. Do we look that stupid? Ottawa!
Roy Boy: Nice try, Dudley.

[Colleptic]

tivodan1116 The fact that the mainstream American media hasn't picked this up tells you how much we give a crap about Canadian politics.

Exactly, this is a Canadian issue, but Europe and Australia (among others) are paying attention, due to the fact they are very politically aware.

This stems back to Paul Martin's endless attempts to get the Bush administration to look seriously at the softwood lumber trade issue between Canada and the U.S. Of course, it was shrugged off again and again. This time Martin called out the U.S. publicly at the last G8 Summit in Montreal. He mentioned the trade issue and also said, “To the reticent nations, including the United States, I say there is such a thing as a global conscience, and now is the time to listen to it. Now is the time ... for action.” This, of course, was not liked by Bush and it has been a verbal battle between U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins and Paul Martin ever since. But Canada in general has taken offence to David Wilkins’ public scolding of Martin...even Martin's rival, Stephen Harper, said: ''I actually think the ambassador's intervention was inappropriate…I don't think foreign ambassadors should be expressing their views or intervening in an election.”

Nevertheless, this is a verbal word game. I am happy that Martin called out the U.S., we are one of the U.S.’s biggest trading partners and it is about time they publicly admitted that for once. For the longest time Canada was put on the back burner of U.S. governmental decisions and because of that trade relations have suffered. We give the U.S. so much leniency and great deals on power, lumber and other various needs they have, but for this we get no thanks.

“We’re not going to let up until Canadian companies are repaid the tariffs that were improperly collected on our lumber and until our neighbours respect the fact that free trade must be fair trade.” {Paul Martin}

[Nono]

tivo is right that Canadians tend to have a complex about being so deep in the shadow of the Behemoth Next Door, and so do go on a bit about they-never-pay-attention-to-us!*
Problem is they do pay very close attention, of course, since they're so dependent on Canadian natural resources.

So, Americans, you can't have it both ways. If you don't give a shit about Canadian politics, stay the hell out of it. And stop twisting Canada's arm on all sorts of issues and ignoring NAFTA when it suits you. (Oh, sorry, I forgot: the United States doesn't pay attention to international law any more.)

* For a full exploration of the psychology, see Why I hate Canadians by Will Ferguson

[Chris]

Quote by: Polish/English Every American invasion of Canada in the past has been beaten by disciplined Canadian and British forces. The Americans can kick and scream all they like but their armed forces can't threaten anyone, there soldiers aren't even disciplined enough to defeat small Somalian militia units. Long live Canadian political independance!

Thats a bit of crap. one single army unit was in for the fight of their lives back on 3 oct, 1993. on an original peace keeping mission. I don't know the whole details of 1812 but statements like the above just incite "red blooded" Americans to say things like "Nuh uhhh we'll kick your asses..." and similar. On the same hand, A lot of Americans think the Canadians have a weak armed forces.

Can't we just get along? I like Canada. Loved all the many places I have visited. I hope Canada likes me too.

[Nono]

Canada does have weak armed forces, and has since the 1960s when it decided to whittle things down to what it would take to honour its NATO role and UN peacekeeping commitments. It decided to spend its money on other things.
Why? Because it lives cheek by jowl with the biggest spender of all times -- biggest by far.

This makes perfect sense, though it may seem comical that such a huge country would have such a small force. There used to be a spoof party on the Canadian scene: the Rhinoceros Party (though, to its astonishment, one of its candidates actually placed second once in a federal election :) ). The Rhinoceros Party proposed a military budget of $25, enough to have a telephone number in Ottawa with the recorded message We surrender!

Quote by: Chris Can't we just get along? I like Canada. Loved all the many places I have visited. I hope Canada likes me too.

Generally, Canadians like Americans just fine, at least individually. Only a bigot (and there are some) would be hostile to someone like you, or bishop, or Ibskins, or PatrickHenry, or Mia, or granpa, or Isherwood, or Clarence, or any of the millions of decent Americans who always seem to get overruled politically by the redneck crowd.

But having all those desirable resources and territory and living next to the US kinda makes you edgy and sensitive, something like finding yourself jammed on a crowded subway right next to Son of Belial. :)

[Chris]

Canada has a weak armed forces, in comparison to the US. But in comparison to some other countries with the same population... no. IMO I have been to Halifax and seen some of their Navy. Been driving through Ontario (Petawawa) and despite rumors of the Canadian army using WW2 trucks I saw them driving new trucks around.

[Nono]

Well Canada has a strong martial tradition. Place is full of Scots for one thing.

They probably bought the trucks with the money they saved when they disbanded the airborne regiment following -- speaking of Somalia -- the torture scandal in that country. Canadian soldiers were found to have tortured a Somali youth caught stealing stuff from their camp. The investigation went right to the top. This obviously ties in with the thread down in Miscellaneous.

The navy has been plagued with mechanical breakdowns in their destroyers, and bum submarines as well. On one occasion a couple of years ago the Royal Navy had to rescue an entire crew from a sub the Canadians had purchased and just taken possession of. They'd barely made it out of the port. I tell ya, those Limeys will do anything for money ... :)

By the way, I don't know how I could have forgotten RickSP and gr8ful on my list of fine Americans.

[tivodan1116]

that's ok nono i'm so severly disenfranchised i refuse to say the pledge anymore so i'm not sure i still count as an American.

[Colleptic]

Quote by: Nono This makes perfect sense, though it may seem comical that such a huge country would have such a small force. There used to be a spoof party on the Canadian scene: the Rhinoceros Party (though, to its astonishment, one of its candidates actually placed second once in a federal election :) ). The Rhinoceros Party proposed a military budget of $25, enough to have a telephone number in Ottawa with the recorded message We surrender!

They came second in Ridings, not in the federal elections. A Riding is area of influence by a candidate; they never won a seat in the house, for that you need to win Ridings and more. BTW where are you getting the facts on the Canadian Armed forces from, your statements are quite interesting...

The Popular Vote Count for Rhinoceros Party of Canada:

1965 0.00%
1968 0.07%
1972 0.02%
1979 0.55%
1980 1.01%
1984 0.78%
1988 0.40%

[Colleptic]

Since I am tired of people merely talking about the army, here are some facts and a link.

The (Canadian Forces) CF has about 60,000 members in the Regular Force and about 20,000 in the Primary Reserve Force. DND employs about 20,000 Public Servants. The annual operating budget for the Air Force is approximately $2 billion…The monies are dedicated to operating and maintaining a fleet of over 350 Aircraft and 13 Wings located in all regions of the country from which Air Force personnel patrol Canada's 15,540,000 square kilometres, provide search and rescue, re-supply our peacekeepers and protect Canada's interests abroad. Approx about 16, 000 people in service in all aspects. {Canadian Department of National Defence}

Just our ground forces alone: http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/7_4.asp

Nono On one occasion a couple of years ago the Royal Navy had to rescue an entire crew from a sub the Canadians

That was this year…and those were old British Subs, which we got pretty much for free, due to the fact they were part of a deal that will allow British troops to be trained by Canadians, in Canada.

Do not forget, when needed Canada has always answered the call and has never failed an operation. By the end of WWI the Canadian Army was over 600,000 and one of the most powerful. It held that war at bay; do not forget the U.S. did not enter that war until the very end. (More than 60, 000 died in Europe).

Canadians were among the troops that endured the first major poison gas attacks; we took it and liked it! In the summer of 1918 the Canadians spearheaded the British drive that lead to the end of the war. ("August 8: Canadians and Australians ruptured the German line at the Battle of Amiens. The drive ended three months later when Canadians captured the Belgian city of Mons").

WWII has many more glorious achievements, but what my point is…is that when called upon we have never failed. We also do not start with the best army; in fact at the beginning of WWI it was a rage-tag army, but it ended up being glorious. As it stands now, it is far from weak, but is far from that of the U.S. army, most of the world’s is for that matter…

This talk is hypothetical regarding Canada and the U.S ever going to war. U.S. and Canada are intrinsically linked and there is an unwritten and unspoken respect between the two military forces specifially.