Schwarzenegger Denies Clemency for Williams

[deedee]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Umm... You aren't in favor of governors and presidents commuting sentences and offering pardons? Otherwise known as executive clemency? That IS the law. So, you think Bush shouldn't pardon any of his perp friends that get sentenced? I figger this will happen about oh, say, January of 2009...

Clinton did something similar....remember that?

[bishop]

i think you'll find, deedee, that pat isn't a blindly partisan moron like some people are known to be. he didn't support mark rich's pardon either.

[Zealot]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel ABC News The republican culture of death has spoken. California will murder, with malice aforethought, a man who may be innocent.

To be fair and honest you should state he may or may not be innocent. You are fair and honest, right? The Democrat voice has spoken and refuses to say he might be guilty, they speak the culture of half truth and deception.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Zealot Quote by: gr8fuldaniel ABC News The republican culture of death has spoken. California will murder, with malice aforethought, a man who may be innocent. To be fair and honest you should state he may or may not be innocent. You are fair and honest, right? The Democrat voice has spoken and refuses to say he might be guilty, they speak the culture of half truth and deception.

Thats crap. If I say "may be" I dont have to say "or maybe not". You are being obnoxious for implying that my "may be" is unbalanced. You may be unbalanced.

EDIT: I cant believe you are accusing me of invoking an unbending, rock solid "maybe"

[Nono]

Well, America is in good company: Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, etc.

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Nono Well, America is in good company: Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, etc.

The Roman circus comes to mind. Feeding Christians to lions. Murder used to be more of a spectator sport. I guess thats progress.....that they arent selling tickets. Maybe thats in the works, they can do what they did with the Lottery. Promise that all the proceeds will go to the schools, and then after the bill passes, start scraping off the top.

EDIT:
I hope my sarcasm is obvious. I dont approve of feeding ANYONE to lions.

[Boetie]

Al Sharpton was on a television show where he asked those on the show if there was one witness that did not cut a deal with the prosecutor.

One would think that it would be an easy question to answer. Yes there was a witness that did not cut a deal or No all of the witnessess cut a deal.

Not a single person would answer Sharpton's question. Even the prosecutor wouldn't answer, the prosecuter just kept going on about how clean the streets is going to be now that Tookie will be dead. But no answer, why is that?

[Chris]

Quote by: Nono Well, America is in good company: Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, etc.

& Singapore.

Van Nguyen just got executed for trafficking Heroin!

[gr8fuldaniel]

Quote by: Boetie Al Sharpton was on a television show where he asked those on the show if there was one witness that did not cut a deal with the prosecutor. One would think that it would be an easy question to answer. Yes there was a witness that did not cut a deal or No all of the witnessess cut a deal. Not a single person would answer Sharpton's question. Even the prosecutor wouldn't answer, the prosecuter just kept going on about how clean the streets is going to be now that Tookie will be dead. But no answer, why is that?

EXACTLY!!
The witnesses (read: snitches) had plenty to gain, thats how they get immunity from their own crimes. These were Tookies "friends" and according to NPR Timeline:

As with the Owens killing two weeks before, there are today no surviving witnesses to the crime. But three of Williams' friends -- all with criminal histories and motivation to lie, Williams says -- testify that he confessed to the killings.

(Bold emphasis mine)

[gr8fuldaniel]

How would YOU like to be murdered by the state, based on the testimony of criminals?

[Roberto]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel How would YOU like to be murdered by the state, based on the testimony of criminals?

I wouldn't want anyone murdered by the state, on testimony from criminals, saints or themselves.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel I didnt say that. I said it is the republican governor, under pressure from the Reich-wing, who will murder him. Premeditated. With malice aforethought. He was condemned by a predominately white jury. Not a jury of his peers. Dont be surprised if this is a catylist for riots. The reich is always hoping for a reason to strap on the old tasers and jack boots of freedom.

If it was a white man put to death by a black jury would they receive the same racial complaints?

This man committed the most heinous of crimes and received his punishment. He committed a ton of crimes in prison as well. We need to also show that we do not tolerate murdering innocent people. There are white men sitting on death row that should also be put to death. They do not want to die and are scared of death. I bet the innocent people that were killed didn’t chose to die. He lived a much longer life than he should have and the Governor did good job.

We need to start speeding up the process, since people hang out on death row for an average of 10 years. Open up those spots for others that deserve to be there. Stop building more and more prisons and deliver the evil people to God.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: jbarn19 If it was a white man put to death by a black jury would they receive the same racial complaints? This man committed the most heinous of crimes and received his punishment. He committed a ton of crimes in prison as well. We need to also show that we do not tolerate murdering innocent people. There are white men sitting on death row that should also be put to death. They do not want to die and are scared of death. I bet the innocent people that were killed didn’t chose to die. He lived a much longer life than he should have and the Governor did good job. We need to start speeding up the process, since people hang out on death row for an average of 10 years. Open up those spots for others that deserve to be there. Stop building more and more prisons and deliver the evil people to God.

White men don't get convicted by black juries. There are no black juries. If a white man gets charged with a crime in a predominantly black area, he will have a change of venue before the prosecutor could sneeze. That's assuming a white man would even get charged with a crime in a black area, which is also pretty rare. And if for some reason a white man did get convicted by an all-black jury, you better believe that conviction would be overturned on appeal.
Tookie Williams should make people pause and consider whether or not the death penalty is used appropriately in this country. The man started one of the most violent groups in our recent history, but the evidence against him in these specific murders was pathetic; he was redeemed on Death Row, and did quite a lot to improve society -- certainly more than will be acomplished by his death. He was convicted of four brutal murders, including the slaughter of an entire family, and yet he sat on Death Row for 24 years. His case was turned into a cause celebre, and a political event; this execution is far more "meaningful" now than the murders that led to it.

Right or wrong: this case needs to be considered. It is not a simple situation.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint he was redeemed on Death Row, and did quite a lot to improve society -- certainly more than will be acomplished by his death.

I don't care if he won the nobel peace prize (which the media made it seem as if he was at least nominated). He should've never been given the chance to be "redeemed" in the first place.

[CoffeeSaint]

He should have been executed quickly, on the word of "snitches" (to use Daniel's term)? Then what's the criteria for evidence in a capital case? If a known criminal, with something to gain from his testimony, says you said you did it, is that enough to send you to the chamber the next day? Or should there have been one appeal allowed?

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: deedee Quote by: PatrickHenry Umm... You aren't in favor of governors and presidents commuting sentences and offering pardons? Otherwise known as executive clemency? That IS the law. So, you think Bush shouldn't pardon any of his perp friends that get sentenced? I figger this will happen about oh, say, January of 2009... Clinton did something similar....remember that?

You want me to approve of the previous president's use of the pardon at the end of his term? Or condemn it?

It's just the law...Governors and presidents have the power. Are you saying you will be disappointed if your Republican president is no more conscience-led than the previous Democrat?

Listen, Governor Bush could have commuted Karla Faye Tucker's death sentence to LWOP. But the "compassionate" conservative chose to sign her death warrant, even though she repented and was doing work for God's Kingdom in prison. What do you bet he gives politically connected Republican criminals a complete PARDON before leaving office in January of 2009? It's all about the MONEY and the connections...

[Rainbow]

Quote by: gr8fuldaniel What police officer? If Williams had a better attorney, he may have gotten a a jury that is less likely to have had predjudice. Unfortunately, people are very superficial. I am not the one with an itchy trigger finger. I am saying if there is even a shadow of doubt, give him life without parole, AT THE VERY WORST, but dont murder the guy based on the word of a snitch. Its not OK to murder, right? So dont kill him.

#1
It was a hypothetical example, only.

#2
In your view, a better laywer could help Williams to get away with his crimes.
Am I correct ?

#3
I am not sure whether you are serious on that issue.

#4
In other words :
- award a bandit

[jbarn19]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint White men don't get convicted by black juries. There are no black juries. If a white man gets charged with a crime in a predominantly black area, he will have a change of venue before the prosecutor could sneeze. That's assuming a white man would even get charged with a crime in a black area, which is also pretty rare. And if for some reason a white man did get convicted by an all-black jury, you better believe that conviction would be overturned on appeal. Tookie Williams should make people pause and consider whether or not the death penalty is used appropriately in this country. The man started one of the most violent groups in our recent history, but the evidence against him in these specific murders was pathetic; he was redeemed on Death Row, and did quite a lot to improve society -- certainly more than will be acomplished by his death. He was convicted of four brutal murders, including the slaughter of an entire family, and yet he sat on Death Row for 24 years. His case was turned into a cause celebre, and a political event; this execution is far more "meaningful" now than the murders that led to it. Right or wrong: this case needs to be considered. It is not a simple situation.

That’s right it is not a simple situation and was considered. I saw an entire article in the small local paper in my town. This article didn’t prejudge, but did tell about his life and what strides he had made. But he also attacked many guards and killed people. If anything, could he have been held responsible for crimes against humanity in terms of the Gang he started? Many of Hitler’s high followers were found guilty of this and were sentenced to death. Should they have been allowed to go to prison write some books change some lives and live to see their end in peace. All I am saying is that we shouldn’t tolerate this behavior and respond accordingly. Tookie was in prison for many years with activist and higher rated lawyers on his side and still was not proven innocent; I think that says enough for consideration.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint He should have been executed quickly, on the word of "snitches" (to use Daniel's term)? Then what's the criteria for evidence in a capital case? If a known criminal, with something to gain from his testimony, says you said you did it, is that enough to send you to the chamber the next day? Or should there have been one appeal allowed?

You're right, I don't know the details of the crime.

All I know is that he was convicted of more than one murder and he then sat on death row for 25+ years.

[Boetie]

I would like to elaborate on the three snitches whom put Tookie to death.

It's a common practice for law enforcement agencies to utilize what is commonly known as the prisoner's dilemma. It works like this:

You snitch on the other guy, you'll get the best case scenario, if you don't snitch on the other guy you'll get the worst case scenario.

Such a dilemma is probably worst than torture for the prisoner.

Making use of the method doesn't mean that you've got the right guy, all it means is that you'll have a snitch to help you get a conviction.