Qaeda-Iraq Link U.S. Cited Is Tied to Coercion Claim

[RickSp]

Qaeda-Iraq Link U.S. Cited Is Tied to Coercion Claim

The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda on detailed statements made by a prisoner while in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials. The officials said the captive, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, provided his most specific and elaborate accounts about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda only after he was secretly handed over to Egypt by the United States in January 2002, in a process known as rendition. The new disclosure provides the first public evidence that bad intelligence on Iraq may have resulted partly from the administration's heavy reliance on third countries to carry out interrogations of Qaeda members and others detained as part of American counterterrorism efforts. The Bush administration used Mr. Libi's accounts as the basis for its prewar claims, now discredited, that ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda included training in explosives and chemical weapons.

The fruits of rendition. The oft repeated reason why torture doesn't work is because the victim will at some point say anything to make it stop. In this case it was part of the bad intel, that the Bush cabal used to launch a needless war.

[Boetie]

Torture can also be used to make it look like the victim fabricated the story.

Interrogater: Is there a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda?

Victim: No

Interrogator sticks a funnel up the victim's ass. "I'm going to ask you one more time, is there a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda?"

Victim: No

Interrogator is holding a pan of hot melted lead and is ready to pour it into the funnel. "Is there a connection..."

Victim: Yes, yes, yes there is.

Later the story breaks that the victim was fabricating. Bush Jr replies to the story, "well you know those detainees will lie everytime.

Bushbots: Oh come into my arms baby boy bush junior, is everyone picking on you again. Come to mommy's arms. We'll tell those bad, bad, people to stop picking on you.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: RickSp Qaeda-Iraq Link U.S. Cited Is Tied to Coercion Claim The fruits of rendition. The oft repeated reason why torture doesn't work is because the victim will at some point say anything to make it stop. In this case it was part of the bad intel, that the Bush cabal used to launch a needless war.

Here you go with your secret squirrel conspiracy theory sh**. Things aren't going so well in my life so I will go tell some bullsh** so I can get back in the spotlight. Down with any type of torture and make sure the murderer or worse it comfortable. I bet if you give them some 5 star hotel service they will tell the truth. I tell you that needless Global war on terrorism is a bitc*, huh? If we ignore terror it will just go away and we can live our happy peaceful lives. If you tell me Sadamm is an angel and Iraq was at peace with the world you are a sad sad person living a very sheltered life. This war sucks but it is necessary for those people that care about their families future.

[xyzer]

Rick uses an illogical statement,..Generalizing off one specific to attempt to make a point!!!!

The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda on detailed statements made by a prisoner while in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials.

Oh, so the liar is now a truth teller?

Surely we all know ..Rick...the intelligence gleaned from one Egyptian was not in any way crucial in national and or international intelligence sources. That deduction is illogical and ridiculous !
There was all kinds of evidence that supported the contentionof Al qaeda in Iraq!!1 Enough that most of Congress were concerned enough to feel there was some kind of a threat. Evidence of Al Qaeda agents in Iraq and even the fact the Hussein was paying the families of terroistas who blew themselves up in the cause of Isamic Jihad! Isn't a terrorist or his/her provider a terrorist no matter what organizational name they operate under?

Rick also falls into the leftist antiwar trap of implicitly believing the story of a renegade Egyptian over the utterances of our, and most of the worlds, intelligence agencies...Now thats a good one..A peon is telling the truth and the rest of the world is telling whoppers? :rolleyes:

[RickSp]

xyzer and jbarn - Pretty typical. Insults and personal attacks because your Fearless Leaders get caught red handed. I guess that is the best you can do.

What could be more absurd? Condi wanders the world repeating the party lie - We Don't Torture - meeting with disbelief everywhere she goes. At the same time, Cheney is lobbying Congress not to pass the McClain Amendment prohibiting torture and going down in defeat. Then this morning the New York Times reveals that key elements of the bad intel used to justify Bush's fiasco invasion was extracted under torture. The lies are all being revealed, one by one.

And all the Bushbots can do is foam at the mouth and rant. Pretty sad.

[xyzer]

Rick..I re read my post and I sure don't see where I personally attacked you?

Pretty typical. Insults and personal attacks because your Fearless Leaders get caught red handed. I guess that is the best you can do.

I'm becoming more convinced that you don't want to engage in logical discussions. You seem to prefer to spout meaningless mantras and criticisms of our Prresident to a logical discussion. If you are called for faulty logic and meaningless mantras you consider it a personal attack. These are IMNSHO poor responses to a debate topic...ad hominem attacks wont win the argumeny... facts might.!

By the way, how do you defiine torture? If you don't have a definition for it then how can you logically call Sec State Rice a liar? Lets have you definition along with some evidence to back up your illogical mantra..Condi lied?

[RickSp]

Quote by: xyzer Rick..I re read my post and I sure don't see where I personally attacked you? By the way, how do you defiine torture? If you don't have a definition for it then how can you logically call Sec State Rice a liar? Lets have you definition along with some evidence to back up your illogical mantra..Condi lied?

Rereading both posts and yes, it was jbarn that was hurling insults. Your post was merely full of so many mistatements of facts or outright falsehoods as to be hardly worth responding to. My mistake.

Illogical mantra? LOL. Let's see Cheney is fighting making torture illegal, over one hundred prisoners have been beaten to death in US custody according to US government estimates and you want to play legal games about the definition of torture. I am happy with the definition provided by the UN Convention Against Torture .

Let me make this simple for you. You obviously did not read the linked article so let me summarize it for you. Exerpted from the Times:

• The officials said the captive, Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, provided his most specific and elaborate accounts about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda only after he was secretly handed over to Egypt by the United States in January 2002, in a process known as rendition.
  
• A classified Defense Intelligence Agency report issued in February 2002 that expressed skepticism about Mr. Libi's credibility on questions related to Iraq and Al Qaeda was based in part on the knowledge that he was no longer in American custody when he made the detailed statements, and that he might have been subjected to harsh treatment, the officials said. They said the C.I.A.'s decision to withdraw the intelligence based on Mr. Libi's claims had been made because of his later assertions, beginning in January 2004, that he had fabricated them to obtain better treatment from his captors.
  
• While he made some statements about Iraq and Al Qaeda when in American custody, the officials said, it was not until after he was handed over to Egypt that he made the most specific assertions, which were later used by the Bush administration as the foundation for its claims that Iraq trained Qaeda members to use biological and chemical weapons.
  
• During his time in Egyptian custody, Mr. Libi was among a group of what American officials have described as about 150 prisoners sent by the United States from one foreign country to another since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks for the purposes of interrogation.
  
• In statements before the war, and without mentioning him by name, President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Colin L. Powell, then the secretary of state, and other officials repeatedly cited the information provided by Mr. Libi as "credible" evidence that Iraq was training Qaeda members in the use of explosives and illicit weapons. Among the first and most prominent assertions was one by Mr. Bush, who said in a major speech in Cincinnati in October 2002 that "we've learned that Iraq has trained Al Qaeda members in bomb making and poisons and gases."
  
• The question of why the administration relied so heavily on the statements by Mr. Libi has long been a subject of contention. Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, the top Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee, made public last month unclassified passages from the February 2002 document, which said it was probable that Mr. Libi "was intentionally misleading the debriefers."
  
• The document showed that the Defense Intelligence Agency had identified Mr. Libi as a probable fabricator months before the Bush administration began to use his statements as the foundation for its claims about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda involving illicit weapons.

[Athena]

Quote by: Boetie Torture can also be used to make it look like the victim fabricated the story. Interrogater: Is there a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda? Victim: No Interrogator sticks a funnel up the victim's ass. "I'm going to ask you one more time, is there a connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda?" Victim: No Interrogator is holding a pan of hot melted lead and is ready to pour it into the funnel. "Is there a connection..." Victim: Yes, yes, yes there is. Later the story breaks that the victim was fabricating. Bush Jr replies to the story, "well you know those detainees will lie everytime. Bushbots: Oh come into my arms baby boy bush junior, is everyone picking on you again. Come to mommy's arms. We'll tell those bad, bad, people to stop picking on you.

I think you said something important about our president. I am not comfortable with someone of this character being president of the US.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: jbarn19 Here you go with your secret squirrel conspiracy theory sh**. Things aren't going so well in my life so I will go tell some bullsh** so I can get back in the spotlight. Down with any type of torture and make sure the murderer or worse it comfortable. I bet if you give them some 5 star hotel service they will tell the truth. I tell you that needless Global war on terrorism is a bitc*, huh? If we ignore terror it will just go away and we can live our happy peaceful lives. If you tell me Sadamm is an angel and Iraq was at peace with the world you are a sad sad person living a very sheltered life. This war sucks but it is necessary for those people that care about their families future.

This is just priceless. Lets attempt to tie "family safety" to Saddam, and Iraq.


U.S. taxpayers, you know, the ones financing this little escapade, were not in any danger from Saddam, or any other Middle Easterner until we started meddling in their business.


The terrorism is a direct result of refusing to let the Middle East have the self determination that is required to have the alleged "democracy" that my tax dollars are attempting to install. That is why this experiment will ever work.

Quote by: jbarn19 If you tell me Sadamm is an angel and Iraq was at peace with the world you are a sad sad person living a very sheltered life. This war sucks but it is necessary for those people that care about their families future.

If what you say is true, then I guess we should ask ourselves just how Saddam came into power, and how he procured WMD's in the first place, right?


Oh, and only if your family is living in Iraq, and by some miracle of nature, paying U.S. taxes, you know, to justify the reason for attempting to enforce laws in another country, for example, like we do in Poland.


It is truly sad that some of us have to spend time coming here to shoot down all of the regurgitated party talking points, and media propaganda.

[RickSp]

An editorial in today's NYTimes sums things up well.
Illegal, Immoral and Pointless

There are many reasons why Americans should not torture prisoners, but here is one that may help those who are still not moved by the fact that it is morally wrong and illegal, damages the nation's image, and puts American soldiers who are taken prisoner in mortal peril: It usually doesn't work. Torture is a terrible way to do the very thing that the administration uses to excuse it - getting accurate information. Centuries of experience show that people will tell their tormenters what they want to hear, whether it's confessing to witchcraft in Salem, admitting to counterrevolutionary tendencies in Soviet Russia or concocting stories about Iraq and Al Qaeda. Which brings us to the sorry tale of Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi, identified as a former Qaeda leader. Douglas Jehl recounted in yesterday's Times how Mr. Libi was captured in Pakistan in late 2001 by American forces and later sent for questioning to Egypt, which the C.I.A. uses as a proxy for this sort of grubby work. The Egyptians interrogated Mr. Libi for a year and sent him back to the American authorities talking about how Qaeda members had received chemical weapons training in Iraq. There was only one problem: Mr. Libi says he made the story up to appease the Egyptians, who he says tortured him. The Defense Intelligence Agency tried warning early on that Mr. Libi's credibility was dubious, partly because the Pentagon knows the Egyptians abuse their prisoners. But the president and his team went ahead anyway and presented Mr. Libi's fairy tale as one of the justifications for invading Iraq. The information was later repudiated, and Mr. Libi is now said to be at a secret C.I.A. camp. He will probably never be brought to justice for any terrorism he did plan or commit because his case, like those of others under illegal detention, has been so compromised by his treatment that it would probably be thrown out of court. It took too long, but the Senate is finally trying to clean up this mess, voting 90 to 9 for an amendment by Senator John McCain to reimpose age-old rules of decency for the detainees in the "war on terror." The House should endorse that amendment, which is attached to the Pentagon budget bill, and send it to President Bush.

[xyzer]

Illogical mantra? LOL. Let's see Cheney is fighting making torture illegal, over one hundred prisoners have been beaten to death in US custody according to US government estimates and you want to play legal games about the definition of torture. I am happy with the definition provided by the UN Convention Against Torture .

Come now Rick..you just fell into the profle I decried...one who spouts illogical mantras. I'm the one who is LOL? Cheney is fighting to make torture illegal? Does not that, obviously biased statement, imply our higher ups already think it's legall? Where is the evidence of this except in the minds of bigots and demagogues who spout mindless nonsense expecting the innocent to be impressed.
I note you have yet to define the term torture you are so quick to use! Having trouble with it? The UN convention against tortuire has never been brought up with evidence that the US is intentionally doing it, has it? Has the UN censored the terrorists who publicly cut off several prisoners heads? Or does not that method of extracting information meet the UN definition?

I don't think people like you have any conception of the brutality of war and armed combat. The fact that our troops treat the enemy roughly is acceptible to those who engage the enemy in a life and death struggle. Would you treat someone who is trying to kill you with TLC? Hell no! If you don't shoot them or stab them you treat them roughly. Of the approximately half million troops who have at one time been engaged in Iraq over the past couple of years one hundred enemy beaten to death is a blip in the casualty scale. Besides,as usual you use an unidentified estimate as your source in the matter. Then you ramble on about torture being the wrong way to extact information..remember you haven't defined the term and you haven't furnished any evidence of it...other than that of anti war zealots who were not and are not on the scene! plus the usual one victim who claims he was tortured but cant prove it to anyone but you?? :eek:

[RickSp]

Quote by: xyzer Come now Rick..you just fell into the profle I decried...one who spouts illogical mantras. I'm the one who is LOL? Cheney is fighting to make torture illegal? Does not that, obviously biased statement, imply our higher ups already think it's legall? Where is the evidence of this except in the minds of bigots and demagogues who spout mindless nonsense expecting the innocent to be impressed.

One day you might understand that denying the truth does nothing to change it.

Powell aide: Torture 'guidance' from VP

A former top State Department official said Sunday that Vice President Dick Cheney provided the "philosophical guidance" and "flexibility" that led to the torture of detainees in U.S. facilities. Retired U.S. Army Col. Larry Wilkerson, who served as former Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, told CNN that the practice of torture may be continuing in U.S.-run facilities. "There's no question in my mind that we did. There's no question in my mind that we may be still doing it," Wilkerson said on CNN's "Late Edition."

And as you appear not to have been paying attention, Alberto Gonzales, as presidential lawyer led a group which penned what has become known as the "torture memo" authoring interrogation methods which are indeed torture under international treaty.

Gonzales torture memo controversy builds
Gonzales Helped Set the Course for Detainees

In March 2002, U.S. elation at the capture of al Qaeda operations chief Abu Zubaida was turning to frustration as he refused to bend to CIA interrogation. But the agency's officers, determined to wring more from Abu Zubaida through threatening interrogations, worried about being charged with violating domestic and international proscriptions on torture. White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales chaired the meetings on this issue, which included detailed descriptions of interrogation techniques such as "waterboarding," a tactic intended to make detainees feel as if they are drowning. He raised no objections and, without consulting military and State Department experts in the laws of torture and war, approved an August 2002 memo that gave CIA interrogators the legal blessings they sought.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: RickSp xyzer and jbarn - Pretty typical. Insults and personal attacks because your Fearless Leaders get caught red handed. I guess that is the best you can do. What could be more absurd? Condi wanders the world repeating the party lie - We Don't Torture - meeting with disbelief everywhere she goes. At the same time, Cheney is lobbying Congress not to pass the McClain Amendment prohibiting torture and going down in defeat. Then this morning the New York Times reveals that key elements of the bad intel used to justify Bush's fiasco invasion was extracted under torture. The lies are all being revealed, one by one. And all the Bushbots can do is foam at the mouth and rant. Pretty sad.

Rick, if you received insults from my post then you believe that Saddam was a good man leading a peaceful Iraq. If you do believe this then yes insults are directed toward your character and intelligence by the tone of your post against the President of my Country. The other insult about things not going so well in my life was directed to the outside politicians you so dearly adore.

Then you talk about the NY times bagging on the President. I have never read a more liberal newspaper in my life. You talk about proof that the 911 commission said wasn’t there and wont review again because it isn’t there. Your proof is the liberal media telling you that there is proof. I am sure your come back would be to show me all the proof that the media has created. Can you show me actual documents signed by the President of the United States implicating him in this prejudgment? Freedom of Speech, this is what allows the press to make believe things and not be held responsible. Bill Clinton was hit with a lot of proof when he had fun with Monica. If this President did create this entire war and is getting away with it, then people need to be in awe of his intelligence. If he did craft this entire thing up and can twist so many people like nobody has done in the past I would say that he is one smart man. Boetie acts like Pres Bush is helpless and yet glorifies his intelligence.

Please post some actual documents that were manipulated by the President. I would like to see the facts that the wonderful NY media has to substantiate their lies.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: Milton Bradley This is just priceless. Lets attempt to tie "family safety" to Saddam, and Iraq. U.S. taxpayers, you know, the ones financing this little escapade, were not in any danger from Saddam, or any other Middle Easterner until we started meddling in their business. The terrorism is a direct result of refusing to let the Middle East have the self determination that is required to have the alleged "democracy" that my tax dollars are attempting to install. That is why this experiment will ever work. If what you say is true, then I guess we should ask ourselves just how Saddam came into power, and how he procured WMD's in the first place, right? Oh, and only if your family is living in Iraq, and by some miracle of nature, paying U.S. taxes, you know, to justify the reason for attempting to enforce laws in another country, for example, like we do in Poland. It is truly sad that some of us have to spend time coming here to shoot down all of the regurgitated party talking points, and media propaganda.

How I wish I could live in your happy safe world Milt. Family safety tied into it when 911 happened or all the other attacks around the world. You are downplaying Saddam and acting like he ran a safe country and would never supply to terrorist. You are saying that even though he praised the 911 attacks and other terrorist attacks that he was a good man. You are also saying that in no way could he have supplied to any attacks on America. He hates everyone that does not believe in what he believes in (Hitler) and wants to destroy those people. Your brain just cannot grasp the Global War on Terror concept and how Iraq plays a strategic part in this war. I will not give you a lesson on this because it would be a long post that would fall on deaf liberal ears.

Here we go with your tax dollars. Why can’t your tax dollars go to the school system or reconstruction help in Hurricane stricken states? If you really give up that many taxes to supply the military with all the equipment to win the war then you really are a Milton Bradley. With all that money you would think you could move to France and live your long safe life.

And it is sad that you come here to post your hug a tree only America is evil ideals. The only basis for your sad post was Saddam is Great and all my millions in taxes go to a senseless war on terror.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: jbarn19 How I wish I could live in your happy safe world Milt. Family safety tied into it when 911 happened or all the other attacks around the world. You are downplaying Saddam and acting like he ran a safe country and would never supply to terrorist. You are saying that even though he praised the 911 attacks and other terrorist attacks that he was a good man. You are also saying that in no way could he have supplied to any attacks on America. He hates everyone that does not believe in what he believes in (Hitler) and wants to destroy those people. Your brain just cannot grasp the Global War on Terror concept and how Iraq plays a strategic part in this war. I will not give you a lesson on this because it would be a long post that would fall on deaf liberal ears.

When I read that, I heard a great ripping sound like velcro as reality was detached from the face of this conversation. I am neither Liberal, nor Democrat, so I think you are just playing the point the finger for a diversion game that works on most Democrats. I don't support those people, so throwing their bad behavior in my face does nothing to derail my points.

Quote by: jbarn19 Here we go with your tax dollars. Why can’t your tax dollars go to the school system or reconstruction help in Hurricane stricken states? If you really give up that many taxes to supply the military with all the equipment to win the war then you really are a Milton Bradley. With all that money you would think you could move to France and live your long safe life

.


It is not just the money, it is the "authority" to spend that money as they do. The American taxpayer has no responsibility to make the world safe for its corporate overlords. That is just the result of bad policy by corrupt politicians, and is in total violation of the constitution.

Quote by: jbarn19 And it is sad that you come here to post your hug a tree only America is evil ideals. The only basis for your sad post was Saddam is Great and all my millions in taxes go to a senseless war on terror.

The "terror" was cultivated from bad foreign policy, and if corporate America wants to wage war with Iraq, they need to figure out a way to do it without sending innocent American chldren to their death under false pretenses.

[Boetie]

jbarn posts: Boetie acts like he is helpless and yet glorifies his intelligence.

jbarn,
I never even mentioned your name or addressed you in any way period, yet you felt the need to bring me up in one of your posts. I am suprised you get that impression. I have always felt the impression I give to others is that I'm a pissant. Back to the topic

Please go to the link provided

Bush Jr tries to rationalize torture

In the above link you can download actual memos in the pdf or html file format

3 memos from the white house

7 memos from the dept of justice

8 memos from the dept of defense

It's important that we understand Bush Jr's Method of Operandi aka MO. It goes as far back as his days in Texas. He will stand outside the courtroom door saying to the public that he wants to serve jury duty, at the same time inside of the courtroom door is his lawyer fighting to get him out of jury duty. Bush Jr has used this MO throughout his career and never stopped using this MO.

Bush Jr speaking out of both sides of his mouth all the time.

[jbarn19]

Quote by: Milton Bradley When I read that, I heard a great ripping sound like velcro as reality was detached from the face of this conversation. I am neither Liberal, nor Democrat, so I think you are just playing the point the finger for a diversion game that works on most Democrats. I don't support those people, so throwing their bad behavior in my face does nothing to derail my points. . It is not just the money, it is the "authority" to spend that money as they do. The American taxpayer has no responsibility to make the world safe for its corporate overlords. That is just the result of bad policy by corrupt politicians, and is in total violation of the constitution. The "terror" was cultivated from bad foreign policy, and if corporate America wants to wage war with Iraq, they need to figure out a way to do it without sending innocent American chldren to their death under false pretenses.

You act like you speak for all taxpayers? All taxpayers are responsible for this war all the way down to the state. We as taxpayers voted for all the “corrupt politicians” that are in place to allow them to control the monetary issues. Not voting for that person or that person is not an excuse as an American. We give certain powers to the government through elections driven by the Constitution.

And again you blame America and countries alike for terrorism, the most erroneous charge anyone can make. I build a church and therefore deserve an anti-believer to attack that church.

I have been to Iraq twice and have seen brothers and sisters in arms fall. Some of these were very close friends. You act like you speak for the men and women in Iraq but you don’t speak for us. Debate all you want but don’t stand by and caste judgment using the thousands of brave soldiers. They do not belong in your debate and receive “false deaths” only by your fowl words.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: jbarn19 You act like you speak for all taxpayers? All taxpayers are responsible for this war all the way down to the state. We as taxpayers voted for all the “corrupt politicians” that are in place to allow them to control the monetary issues. Not voting for that person or that person is not an excuse as an American. We give certain powers to the government through elections driven by the Constitution. And again you blame America and countries alike for terrorism, the most erroneous charge anyone can make. I build a church and therefore deserve an anti-believer to attack that church. I have been to Iraq twice and have seen brothers and sisters in arms fall. Some of these were very close friends. You act like you speak for the men and women in Iraq but you don’t speak for us. Debate all you want but don’t stand by and caste judgment using the thousands of brave soldiers. They do not belong in your debate and receive “false deaths” only by your fowl words.

Wow, you told me. Now that I have been put firmly in my place, I will just cower into the corner like a scolded dog.

[Rainbow]

The Bush administration based a crucial prewar assertion about ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda on detailed statements made by a prisoner while in Egyptian custody who later said he had fabricated them to escape harsh treatment, according to current and former government officials.

Douglas Jehl - the author of that article - is not quite correct.
The U.N. inspectors' reports played the key role, instead.

[Osborn F Enready]

jbarn19 said:
You act like you speak for all taxpayers? All taxpayers are responsible for this war all the way down to the state. We as taxpayers voted for all the “corrupt politicians” that are in place to allow them to control the monetary issues. Not voting for that person or that person is not an excuse as an American. We give certain powers to the government through elections driven by the Constitution.

I say:
How many people did you pick from on that ballot for those Representatives? Out of the ones you had to pick from (rebloodlicans, democrips), how many other voices did you hear in debate, in news coverage, in voluntary reading and investigation?

Who is to blame for the sorry representation we have in politics? The two major parties.

They consistently push their vermin to the forefront, and in cahoots with the press they gloss over most of the actual questions about the persons history, or their criminal records, or their public information. The only people who win the major party support are sell out, big government growing, nanny-statists, and that is why the people are to blame. FOR BEING TO AMBIVALENT TO GIVE A SHIT!!!!!

jbarn19 said:
And again you blame America and countries alike for terrorism, the most erroneous charge anyone can make.

I say:
Obviously you don't understand how soverignity and U.S. foreign policy don't get along unless you tow the U.S. party line with total devotion. Before you say " we are the best there is" and "whats wrong with loving America" realize what I am saying.

You need to investigate just how much the U.S. and its agents, interact and intervene both publicly and clandestinely in other countries, to affect politics and public perception.

When we supported Saddam, he was still the same cruel, sadistic asshole he was when we dug him out of his spider-hole. When we supported him, we were sending HIM Anthrax, and other deadly CHEMICALS AND TOXINS for biological and chemical weapons. Part of the reason we suspected him of having these things is we had the SHIPPING INVOICES from when WE SENT THEM TO HIM.

I agree, Saddam was a tyrant, and needed to be removed. I don't agree it should have been handled in any way, like it was, or is being handled. This has resulted in a huge loss of American advantage militarily, a huge loss of public support around the world, and a huge black eye to our political and justice system in this nation. Anyone who can't agree to those points is just not being honest. Each of them are factually backable.

jbarn19 said:
I have been to Iraq twice and have seen brothers and sisters in arms fall. Some of these were very close friends. You act like you speak for the men and women in Iraq but you don’t speak for us. Debate all you want but don’t stand by and caste judgment using the thousands of brave soldiers. They do not belong in your debate and receive “false deaths” only by your fowl words.

I say:
I respect your service, and regret your losses, but that does not negate the fact that this war was wrongly handled, wrongly started by us, and wrongly handled by Congress.

I don't want to sound like a dick, but it is all about the rules, and we broke them in the name of someone else breaking rules......... that is just plain hypocrisy, no matter how you color, shape or form it.

Hypocrisy is an evil all people have, born into them. GOOD people, strive to reduce their level of hypocrisy in the intent of earning trust, respect and good sense of RATIONAL judgement.

Hypocrisy when done with great power, great money, great loss of life, is POWER WITHOUT REASON, and should be viewed as bad no matter what the case, cause or reasoning.

Our current leader, G.W. Bush has been a hypocrite since before he took the office of President. He was a hypocrite as a governor. You could say he has been promoted by fostering and promoting hypocrisy. He is a member of one of the two major political parties in this nation. Hypocrisy is one of their key factors for promotion and "privlidges".

For example.

Republicans often tout that they are "fiscally conservative" and "in line with Constitutional hallmarks and bedrock foundations" that make this country great. They use this line to appeal to Libertarians and people who aspire to nationalism based on the forefathers.

Not just Bush, but ANY national representative from the party lacks these hallmarks in their VOTING RECORD.

On one side you have the spin:
(what they say)
On the other side you have the facts:
(what they do once in a position, by voting record and offered proposals of legislation.)

Not one member I can see, that I have looked at, has met any of their own personal guidelines our ideologies that helped get them elected. Yet consistently, both parties have put forth TOP members of their parties to be voted for, in major elections, that show these bad false appearing qualities.

Coincidence?????? I highly doubt it, and would take a bet with those odds ANY day.

Also, in closing.....

You alluded to the fact you served in the Armed Forces, is that correct?

If so, to what, or to whom do you swear in your service to, upon swearing in your affirmation for that service?

Wouldn't it be necessary for the President, to abide by the Constituions limitations upon him, and the government, BEFORE committing armed forces to war?

If the duty is to uphold and protect the Constitution, and also to obey the orders of the President of the United States, and Officers underneathe him, is it not also IMPERITAVE that the case be made for war, clearly showing the necessity, and abiding by the Constitutional Process to do such?

The fact is, Iraq was an example of agenda beyond the people, but an agenda of political parties that has no relevance to the people, or directly their security. It IS their agenda however that is directly responsible FOR the INDIRECT RESULTS of that agenda on our security, and all of it is bad.

Educate, Investigate, LEARN.

Our constitution is being usurped as we speak, from the political parties we emplace to protect it.