Allawi: Iraq Abuses As Bad As Under Saddam

[bishop]

article

LONDON - Human rights abuses in Iraq are as bad now as they were under Saddam Hussein and could become even worse, the country's former interim prime minister said in an interview published Sunday. "People are doing the same as Saddam's time and worse," Ayad Allawi told The Observer newspaper. "It is an appropriate comparison." Allawi accused fellow Shiites in the government of being responsible for death squads and secret torture centers and said the brutality of elements in the new security forces rivals that of Saddam's secret police. Although Allawi is a Shiite, he is secular in his politics and is running separately from the Shiite religious parties in the Dec. 15 election. His comments appear to be an attempt to appeal to Sunni voters, who claim their community has been unfairly targeted by the Shiite-led security forces. "People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same thing," the newspaper quoted him as saying. Iraqi officials have played down reports of rights abuses, insisting they are lies created by their enemies.

so much for making the lives of ordinary iraqis better... but hey, at least they can vote now. :rolleyes:

[Jack]

How many times in history have we seen, when the oppressed becomes the oppressor, when the victim becomes the victor, they begin to resemble those they once opposed? There have been psychology experiments that seem to indicate it's a common response.

The Bush administration was fooling itself in thinking that we would be able to change the behavior of an entire nation, behaviors that have existed for thousands of years, by giving them the ability to vote. What else have we done to make such an improvement to their lives that they would forever renounce their old ways?

[bishop]

well, public services are worse than they were under saddam.. and the country's economic situation was a lot better - especially compared to today's 50% (an estimate) unemployment figures. the only good paying jobs are those that would help reconstitute a police state.

and you're right.. it was definitely an act of intellectual immaturity to assume that things would be nice and rosy after we invaded in our shock and awe campaign.. so much for those flowers and candies..

[RickSp]

Interesting that Allawi is the candidate who did poorly in the last round of elections even after the US poured lots of legal and some arguably illegal funds to support his campaign. Allawi is still a favorite in the US government if not necessarily on the Iraqi street.

Revealing that this is the song Allawi is now singing. Certainly not the Bush rose colored fantasy.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Isherwood How many times in history have we seen, when the oppressed becomes the oppressor, when the victim becomes the victor, they begin to resemble those they once opposed? There have been psychology experiments that seem to indicate it's a common response. The Bush administration was fooling itself in thinking that we would be able to change the behavior of an entire nation, behaviors that have existed for thousands of years, by giving them the ability to vote. What else have we done to make such an improvement to their lives that they would forever renounce their old ways?

Kinda makes you think about the Reign Of Terror post- French Revolution doesn't it?
:rolleyes:

[bishop]

Quote by: RickSp Interesting that Allawi is the candidate who did poorly in the last round of elections even after the US poured lots of legal and some arguably illegal funds to support his campaign. Allawi is still a favorite in the US government if not necessarily on the Iraqi street. Revealing that this is the song Allawi is now singing. Certainly not the Bush rose colored fantasy.

it's always telling when politicians begin change their tone as they begin to lose their power. we see it in our own politicians - usually they speak more truthfully as they lose their former glory.

i would be inclined to think, however, that the same abuses that allawi's talking about now occurred when he was the temporary pm..

maybe we'll start to see chalabi speak those rosy colored lines.. he's one of the best snake oil salesmen as it is - and obviously still has friends in the bush administration, despite helping the iranians.

[Squawker]

The Bush administration was fooling itself in thinking that we would be able to change the behavior of an entire nation, behaviors that have existed for thousands of years, by giving them the ability to vote. What else have we done to make such an improvement to their lives that they would forever renounce their old ways?

This happens in every country in the world. Abu Ghraib should have made you realize that. Why single out Iraq and call it a failure because of one or even several instances of torture. Allawi wanted to make a point that this was unexceptable to the new government. The very fact that this is not covered up and is discussed openly is progress.

[Livemike]

Quote by: Isherwood How many times in history have we seen, when the oppressed becomes the oppressor, when the victim becomes the victor, they begin to resemble those they once opposed? There have been psychology experiments that seem to indicate it's a common response. The Bush administration was fooling itself in thinking that we would be able to change the behavior of an entire nation, behaviors that have existed for thousands of years, by giving them the ability to vote. What else have we done to make such an improvement to their lives that they would forever renounce their old ways?

Well the human rights abuses have come _from_ the Bush administration and from
it's allies (e.g. Allawi) so you can't blame the Iraqis for it. The human rights abuses
are not despite but because of them.

[Squawker]

You can't be serious, Livemike. GW didn't invent torture, and doesn't condone torture. Anyone who thinks so is either misinformed or a political hack.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Squawker This happens in every country in the world. Abu Ghraib should have made you realize that. Why single out Iraq and call it a failure because of one or even several instances of torture.

On the surface it simply speaks to the ignorant arrogance, the hubris of the conservative administration, thinking we could simply take over Iraq and remake it in our image, a garrison of Pax Americana holding forth astride the very heart of the Muslim mideast... read: Gulf Oil Region.

Unfortunately, it actually speaks to issues deeper than that... the unravelling of Iraqi society. The torture is not the work of the Iraqi government but of the various autonomous militias that are working simaltaneously with, for and against the ineffectual police forces and the Iraqi Army. Both Shiites and Sunni civilians are fleeing areas in which they are minorities, because of the growing threat of militia death squads. Cleric leader Muqtada al-Sadr, while playing a unifying political role among Shiites, is also heading the largest Shiite militia force in Southern Iraq, a power to counter the Sunni insurgency.

Quote by: Squawker Allawi wanted to make a point that this was unexceptable to the new government. The very fact that this is not covered up and is discussed openly is progress.

Allawi wants to point out that Iraq is spiraling out of control, that whatever vision of a new Iraq the U.S. had in mind, it's WAY off track.

Quote by: Squawker You can't be serious, Livemike. GW didn't invent torture, and doesn't condone torture. Anyone who thinks so is either misinformed or a political hack.

Of course he condones it. "We don't torture, so don't make it illegal!"??? What sort of double-talk is that? Does Bush find it distasteful? Probably. But both Cheney and Rumsfeld have specifically been on record as pushing for less restrictions on the use of torture, for more loopholes in who's not protected by Geneva guidelines and loopholes in using foreign governments to administer techniques we're forbidden. You really think Bush can play the plausible deniability card? That if he didn't specifically authorize it, he didn't condone it?

I assume, Squawker, you understand John McCain's position on the use of torture. Having spent years being tortured in the Hanoi Hilton, he was sustained by his powerful belief that they and we were truly different... that WE were the good guys, that despite whatever dangers we might face, Americans have the courage of our convictions and stand by them, danger or not.

But maybe that's the "old America", just like we used to be the good guys who didn't invade and overthrow defenseless countries that were threatening no one, just because their leader was sticking his tongue out at us, because they might, somehow, be a threat to someone, someday off in the fuzzy future... maybe.

.

[Squawker]

In response to Sonart:
I think you need to do a bit of research into the 1998 invasion of Iraq and the reasons for it. I don’t recall anyone suggesting Iraq should be modeled after the US political system. Democracy is an ideological philosophy independent from the structure of the government. It can’t be forced on them, they have to choose it. I don’t agree with a lot of John McCain’s positions. The US has the strictest Military code of conduct in the world. Source McCain is calling “torture” ''cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, Source Degrading treatment is relative and subjective. I don’t agree that foreign enemy combatants should have the same rights bestowed on US citizens. Making that statement doesn’t mean I condone torture.

[bishop]

what does that have to do with allawi's analysis of the current situation in iraq - where life was actually better under saddam? and to think that this was a shi'ite who said that life was better under saddam..

democracy has been forced on iraq.. i wonder if it can survive the impending civil war.

[Squawker]

where life was actually better under saddam? and to think that this was a shi'ite who said that life was better under saddam.. democracy has been forced on iraq.. i wonder if it can survive the impending civil war.

Do you have the link verifying he actually said that? How do you force Democracy on free people?

[Clarence]

Quote by: Squawker ''cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States,[/b] Source Degrading treatment is relative and subjective.

I'll bet you have a good rant lined up against Saddam and the justifications for invasion. You won't hear me say he was a good guy. However; when you go into the justifications for war, namely his torturous ways, i will tell you that cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment is relative and subjective. I will remember.

[Squawker]

i will tell you that cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment is relative and subjective.

It doesn't kill thousands of innocent people either, By the way, I don't rant. lol

[Clarence]

Welcome, Squawker. I rant when compelled. I hope you do too.

[bishop]

Quote by: Squawker Do you have the link verifying he actually said that? How do you force Democracy on free people?

yeah.. try starting with the article i cited when i created this thread.

[bishop]

Quote by: Squawker It doesn't kill thousands of innocent people either, By the way, I don't rant. lol

hasn't bush's war also caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people?

[Sonart]

Quote by: Squawker I think you need to do a bit of research into the 1998 invasion of Iraq and the reasons for it.

Operation Desert Fox? Sure, we bombed the crap out of Iraq for 3 days but we didn't "invade" anything, dood. Only Boy George was dumb enough to pin down American troops in Iraq. Why do you suppose Georgie's daddy never pursued Hussein to Baghdad in '91? Because he knew doing so was an invitation to quagmire.

Quote by: Squawker I don’t recall anyone suggesting Iraq should be modeled after the US political system. Democracy is an ideological philosophy independent from the structure of the government. It can’t be forced on them, they have to choose it.

Then either you're not paying attention, Squawker, or you're ignoring the inconvenient. After scaring Americans half to death with tales of WMD and "Mushroom Clouds", Dear Leader launched the invasion of Iraq, only to find none of the avowed WMD or connections to al-Qaeda. Meaning we apparently invaded a sovereign nation that was threatening no one, BY MISTAKE! So he switched to rationale B)... telling America and the world that his grand scheme all along was to establish democracy in Iraq, to plant the first seed of democracy that would spread throughout the mideast.

"The days of oppression from any source are over. Iraq will be democratic." -- George W. Bush, April 23, 2003

Now as it turns out, oddly enough, I agree with you. Democracy can't be forced on anyone, it has to be chosen. Apparently it was Boy George who didn't understand it.

Quote by: Squawker McCain is calling “torture” ''cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments

Number one, yeah, so what? Number two, kinda picking and choosing aren't you...

From the McCain Amendment...

(a) IN GENERAL.--No person in the custody or under the effective control of the Department of Defense or under detention in a Department of Defense facility shall be subject to any treatment or technique of interrogation not authorized by and listed in the United States Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogation.

(d) CRUEL, INHUMAN, OR DEGRADING TREATMENT OR PUNISHMENT DEFINED.--In this section, the term ''cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment'' means the cruel, unusual, and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, as defined in the United States Reservations, Declarations and Understandings to the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Forms of Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment done at New York, December 10, 1984.

Quote by: Squawker I don’t agree that foreign enemy combatants should have the same rights bestowed on US citizens. Making that statement doesn’t mean I condone torture.

Never the less, that's what Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would condone. And either people have the same human rights that we do or we're lying hypocrites when we preach about human rights.

.