Republicans seek vote on Iraq withdrawal proposal

[bishop]

article

WASHINGTON (AP) -- House Republicans sought a showdown Friday with Democrats on a proposal by one of their most senior members to force an end to the U.S. deployment of troops in Iraq. Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, offered the resolution demanding a pullout. The GOP-run House was expected to reject it -- and make a prominent statement about where Congress stands on Iraq -- as the chamber scurried toward a Thanksgiving break. "We'll let the members debate it and then let them vote on it," said Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Missouri, the acting majority leader. House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi's office had no immediate comment. Murtha, a well-respected Vietnam veteran who voted for the Iraq war, called for the immediate withdrawal of troops Thursday, intensifying the already red-hot debate on Capitol Hill over President Bush's war policies. (Full Story) Murtha's resolution would force the president to withdrawal the nearly 160,000 troops in Iraq "at the earliest predictable date." Most Republicans oppose Murtha's plan, and even some Democrats have been reluctant to back his position. Republicans were seeking to force Democrats to stand with the respected 30-year congressman or go on the record against his proposal. Some members of the House and Senate, looking ahead to off-year elections next November, are publicly worrying about a quagmire there. They have been staking out new positions on the war that has grown increasingly unpopular with the American public, resulted in more than 2,000 U.S. military deaths and cost more than $200 billion. The House move comes just days after the GOP-controlled Senate defeated a Democratic push for Bush to lay out a timetable for withdrawal. Spotlighting mushrooming questions from both parties about the war, though, the chamber then approved a statement that 2006 should be a significant year in which conditions are created for the phased withdrawal of U.S. forces. "Our troops have become the primary target of the insurgency," Murtha, a longtime hawk on foreign and military affairs issues, said Thursday. "They are united against U.S. forces and we have become a catalyst for violence. The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion." A day after his comments, a U.S. field commander in Iraq countered the position of the usually pro-military congressman. "Here on the ground, our job is not done," said Col. James Brown, commander of the 56th Brigade Combat Team, when asked about Murtha's comments during a weekly briefing that American field commanders routinely give to Pentagon reporters. Speaking from a U.S. logistics base at Balad, north of Baghdad, two days before his scheduled return to Texas, Brown said: "We have to finish the job that we began here. It's important for the security of this nation." Republicans pounced, chastising Murtha for advocating what they called a strategy of surrender and abandonment, and Democrats defended Murtha as a patriot, even as they declined to back his view. "I won't stand for the swift-boating of Jack Murtha," Sen. John Kerry, the Democratic presidential nominee in 2004, responded Friday. Also a Vietnam veteran, Kerry was dogged during the campaign by a group called the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth that challenged his war record. "There is no sterner stuff than the backbone and courage that defines Jack Murtha's character and conscience," Kerry said. For his part, Kerry has proposed a phased exit from Iraq, starting with the withdrawal of 20,000 troops after December elections in Iraq. A Kerry spokesman said "he has his own plan" when asked if Kerry agreed with immediate withdrawal. As a Vietnam veteran and top Democrat on the House Appropriations defense subcommittee with close ties to many military officers, Murtha carries more credibility with his colleagues on the issue than a number of other Democrats who have opposed the war from the start. Bush administration officials have been cautious in responding to Murtha. "We have nothing but respect for Congressman Murtha's service to his country," White House communications director Nicolle Wallace told NBC's "Today" show Friday. "And I think he spoke from the heart yesterday. We happen to have a real serious policy disagreement with him." Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas, a 29-year Air Force veteran who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam for nearly seven years, called Murtha's position unconscionable and irresponsible. "We've got to support our troops to the hilt and see this mission through," he said. With a Bronze Star and two Purple Hearts, Murtha retired from the Marine Corps reserves as a colonel in 1990 after 37 years as a Marine, only a few years longer than he's been in Congress. Elected in 1974, Murtha has become known as an authority on national security whose advice was sought out by Republican and Democratic administrations alike.

looks like a showdown's coming.. just in time for the mid-term elections too. (i say that because i doubt there will be a quick turnaround in voting for this proposal.)

the republicans are definitely taking a big gamble here, since a majority of the country understands that this war was a mistake. they would likely be punished at the polls if they vote the wrong way..

and for democrats, voting to withdraw will require some spine.. they've pulled off some big moves as of late (most of which were sen. reid's actions).. do they have the backbone to support a withdrawal?

[bishop]

wow.. did anyone see the exchange in the house? friggin ridiculous..

what the republicans did is beyond despicable.. rep. murtha's proposal was to withdraw in 6 months assuming that certain criteria are met.. it was NOT a call for immediate withdrawal...

instead, the republicans have proposed their own, bogus proposal calling for an immediate withdrawal.. wtf?!?

[Apeman81]

WAAAAAAH!!!
They can't hoist us on our own petard!

[Apeman81]

Dems don't like it? Then counter with a demand that encapsulates Murtha's points. Why not?
It's what they want, isn't it?

If its all so damn important, then put it on the table.

[RickSp]

A cheap stunt. It doesn't matter. The tide is clearly turning against King George's war. Let's just hope that the water rises fast enough to drown the rats before too many more good Americans die needlessly. The count as of tonight is 2,083.

[bishop]

i agree with you rick, although i think that cindy sheehan's movement was the one that really got this thing rolling.

seems to be a very late friday night at the house of reps... i think the dems are still in caucus.. (some female republican just called murtha a coward - that's just great) senator warner's begun to criticize the behavior of his own party as well.

nevertheless, it seems to me that despite all the rhetoric, the dems have no plan of their own for iraq - not a surprise to me at all.. the dems are the only people in government that can help pull us out, since all the republicans seem to have is the "stay the course" policy..

[Matt W]

WAAAAAAH!!! They can't hoist us on our own petard!

Apeman, debate seriously or don't post.

Do not respond to me within this thread. PM myself or Sean if you have any questions.

[Compugasm]

I don't understand. Why aren't people cheering in the street? I mean, the war could "end" any moment now, right? Please, I understand it isn't "immediate", but tonight they could decide to pack it up?

[RickSp]

Quote by: bishop nevertheless, it seems to me that despite all the rhetoric, the dems have no plan of their own for iraq - not a surprise to me at all.. the dems are the only people in government that can help pull us out, since all the republicans seem to have is the "stay the course" policy..

The Republican's secret weapon is the intellectual bankruptcy of the Democratic Party.

[bishop]

Quote by: Compugasm I don't understand. Why aren't people cheering in the street? I mean, the war could "end" any moment now, right? Please, I understand it isn't "immediate", but tonight they could decide to pack it up?

my only guess is that it's friday and working people are more interested in unplugging themselves for the short weekend.. it's also a resolution and won't determine whether/not the troops are actually sent home.

i do hope the democratic leadership can get their act together.. it's been clear for a long time now that, for the most part, all they're good for is complaining - not leading.. the republicans aren't much better of course - they either follow whatever bush does/says or they do what the christian fundamentalists say.. (no surprise that the public holds congress in such low regard.)

the fact that this resolution is up for a vote, though, is definitely a good thing - even though the republicans thought this would stick it to the "cowards" (great when a bunch of chickenhawks call dissenting veterans cowards).. now the country is going to demand coherent exit strategies - something that almost nobody in government (especially not the administration who created this mess) have thought of. personally, i think this was a bad strategic move on the part of the republicans because few have the room/will to back away from the war.. for the democrats, the slimey scum that they also are, they can use this opportunity to promote an anti-war agenda.. assuming that things continue going as "well" as they have been in iraq, i think the voters will want to elect candidates campaigning for withdrawing our troops..

just my own analysis, but it is clear that the public wants some real planning/direction in iraq. it's also clear that the public doesn't have any faith in bush anymore, and never had much in congress.. hopefully the dems can get their act together...


edit: i just gotta add this.. friggin pathetic that on cnn's homepage, the center story is that robert fucking blake was found liable in a civil trial.. who the hell cares.

[Compugasm]

I see, so this is a "well you asked for it" thing. And it's hoped to turn the tables on the anti-war people. Well, the choice is obvious, throw it back as a majority in favor. If this were poker, Republicans just went "all in" and you don't fold.

[Jack]

Great. Now we have both sides of the isle "playing politics" with human lives at stake.

[Rainbow]

Quote by: bishop wow.. did anyone see the exchange in the house? friggin ridiculous.. what the republicans did is beyond despicable.. rep. murtha's proposal was to withdraw in 6 months assuming that certain criteria are met.. it was NOT a call for immediate withdrawal... instead, the republicans have proposed their own, bogus proposal calling for an immediate withdrawal.. wtf?!?

The show was great. Even WWF events would not deliver anything better :-))) and it was free of charge :-)))

The House final result :
- Yes : 3
- No : 403

The People final result :
- Yes : appx. 67%
- No : appx. 33%

The outomes overcome logics in any field :-)))))

[Boetie]

Bush Jr is without doubt in violation of the War Powers Act. The Republican Party are also in violation due to their turning away a demand that Bush Jr comes up with an exit plan.

The War Powers Act is quite clear that an exit plan must be in place before going to war. Bush Jr not only didn't have a plan, he got us into this mess and is now playing the buck stops over there.

Edited to include a part of the War Power Act

In the absence of a declaration of war, in any case in which United States Armed Forces are introduced--

Note the above statement. The attack on the nation Iraq is in absence of a declaration of war. With this criteria in existence lets go to another part of the War Power Act which is
(C)
the estimated scope and duration of the hostilities or involvement.

Notice where is states duration in the above statement (C). duration would be the same as time table. Bush Jr never had a timetable. Not only does he not have a time table he doesn't even have an exit plan. Bush Jr and the Republican Party breaking laws all the time.

[bishop]

the aftermath:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/....ap/index.html

gotta love it when the representatives fail to represent the public..

[rcne]

One political stunt deserves another. Nothing should be discussed until after the December election, then a strategy between Iraq and the coalition forces can be planned for an 'orderly' reduction.

What I would like to point out is why be surprised and call the GOP's action a political stunt, when the call for an almost immediate withdrawal (within 6 months) by the democrats was not? Hmmm

I missed most of this house debate, sorry I missed it, I'll look for it later today.

[RickSp]

Quote by: rcne One political stunt deserves another. Nothing should be discussed until after the December election, then a strategy between Iraq and the coalition forces can be planned for an 'orderly' reduction.

How many more needless dead before the discussion even begins, I wonder? 22 more dead American solidiers in the last 5 days. Hundreds of Iraqi civilian dead.

Casualties soar again in Iraq

[Compugasm]

Quote by: Rainbow The House final result : - Yes : 3 - No : 403

Read this again: http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/

[bishop]

Quote by: rcne One political stunt deserves another. Nothing should be discussed until after the December election, then a strategy between Iraq and the coalition forces can be planned for an 'orderly' reduction.

exactly why can't this be talked about NOW? hell, we should've been talking about it a while ago..

murtha was right, the situation there is getting worse for our troops and this cannot be solved by our military - which the insurgents are united against.. time for the iraqis to shit or get off the pot. only a fool would argue that good americans should be dying to defend a country that iraqi nationals should be doing themselves. it's not their fault that our abysmal "leadership" fucked this war up every step of the way..

http://telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jht.../23/wirq23.xml

• Forty-five per cent of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65 per cent in the British-controlled Maysan province; • 82 per cent are "strongly opposed" to the presence of coalition troops; • less than one per cent of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security; • 67 per cent of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation; • 43 per cent of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened; • 72 per cent do not have confidence in the multi-national forces. The opinion poll, carried out in August, also debunks claims by both the US and British governments that the general well-being of the average Iraqi is improving in post-Saddam Iraq.

how is "stay the course" going to correct these enormous problems?? this amounts to nothing more than using american soldiers for target practice..

[Osborn F Enready]

Rainbow said:
The show was great. Even WWF events would not deliver anything better :-))) and it was free of charge :-)))

The House final result :
- Yes : 3
- No : 403

The People final result :
- Yes : appx. 67%
- No : appx. 33%

The outomes overcome logics in any field :-)))))


I say:
LOL, I couldn't have said it better. I agree.

So why do they even claim this pesky label of "representative republic" since those trappings were shed long ago...... modern day political pirates... It's about time the public Coast Guard put a stop to this. Modern politicians believe the Constitution belongs in a glass case for observation, since its the only place you see those things talked about anymore in the world of neuspeak.