Hawkish Democrat Calls for Iraq Pullout

[Nono]

Quote by: Scribs It's akin to accidentally driving ONTO the exit ramp on a freeway. You quickly realize all the traffic is going the opposite way. You can keep going and assume the other cars will avoid you or for some reason the cars will all turn around and drive in the direction YOU are going. Or you can realize your mistake, turn around and travel in the right direction. Or would that be surrendering to the highway?

Right, and as you were going up the exit ramp there were all these people urgently gesticulating to you not to do it, and you gave them the finger and screamed "Wimps!!"

[tinybear]

Quote by: Scribbler1 Since we haven't declared war on the Iraqi people we can't very well surrender, can we? What this is, is making a mistake and instead of pigheadedly pressing on with said mistaken action we CORRECT the error. It's akin to accidentally driving ONTO the exit ramp on a freeway. You quickly realize all the traffic is going the opposite way. You can keep going and assume the other cars will avoid you or for some reason the cars will all turn around and drive in the direction YOU are going. Or you can realize your mistake, turn around and travel in the right direction. Or would that be surrendering to the highway?

Yeah right, go ahead and take the technical point. Why can't you guys just admit surrender?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: tinybear Yeah right, go ahead and take the technical point. Why can't you guys just admit surrender?

I'm taking the CORRECT point, whether it is a "techical" one or not.
Do you prefer to be nontechnical and wrong?

[Sonart]

Quote by: tinybear Yeah right, go ahead and take the technical point. Why can't you guys just admit surrender?

Sure... when you admit that Bush screwed us royal with his blinding incompetence.

Besides, is it surrender when our senior military kept telling Bush we couldn't defeat an insurgency in the first place?

--"Attacking Iraq now will cause a lot of problems.... You could inherit the country of Iraq, if you're willing to do it -- if our economy is so great that you're willing to put billions of dollars into reforming Iraq. If you want to put soldiers that are already stretched so thin all around the world and add them into a security force there forever, like we see in places like the Sinai. If you want to fight with other countries in the region to try to keep Iraq together as Kurds and Shiites try and split off, you're going to have to make a good case for that."-- Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni, Aug. 23, 2002: former Commander in Chief of Central Command... in other words, our forces in the Mideast.

.

[Nono]

Well tiny?

[CoffeeSaint]

I know you weren't asking me, but I'm good with surrender. Is anyone worried that the Iraqis will come here and conquer the U.S.? If not, what's the problem with surrender? What's wrong with an immediate pullout -- I don't mean a mad dash for the border, but a pullout of all troops, starting now?

Wait, I know. George Carlin said it 30 years ago about Vietnam:
"Pull out? Doesn't sound manly to me. I think we ought to stay in there, get the job done."

Surrender would make our penises smaller, wouldn't it? Or would it leave Iraq unsatisfied and angry at us? Are we trying to keep Iraq available for a booty call?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Nono Well tiny?

Tiny is hibernating. You know, she is just a little bear, that's all.

[tinybear]

*Yawn* You called?

[tinybear]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I know you weren't asking me, but I'm good with surrender. Is anyone worried that the Iraqis will come here and conquer the U.S.? If not, what's the problem with surrender? What's wrong with an immediate pullout -- I don't mean a mad dash for the border, but a pullout of all troops, starting now? Wait, I know. George Carlin said it 30 years ago about Vietnam: "Pull out? Doesn't sound manly to me. I think we ought to stay in there, get the job done." Surrender would make our penises smaller, wouldn't it? Or would it leave Iraq unsatisfied and angry at us? Are we trying to keep Iraq available for a booty call?

OK, at least you have the courage to admit it's a surrender. That's a start. There are pros and cons about a surrender. On the plus side, we get our boys back home and out of harm's way. We also get the opportunity of saving ourselves lots of money and of repairing our damaged economy. The Bush administration has not been spending prudently and there's a lot to be said for allowing America a reprieve from massive financial commitments at this time. On the minus, side, however, is the message a surrender like this sends out to the world. It is naive to think that our enemies, the Islamic terrorists will simply leave us alone once we pull out of Iraq. A surrender will be a sign of weakness in the eyes of the enemy and a sign of extreme irresponsibility in the eyes of our allies. America's credibility on the international stage will suffer a great blow.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tinybear OK, at least you have the courage to admit it's a surrender. That's a start. There are pros and cons about a surrender. On the plus side, we get our boys back home and out of harm's way. We also get the opportunity of saving ourselves lots of money and of repairing our damaged economy. The Bush administration has not been spending prudently and there's a lot to be said for allowing America a reprieve from massive financial commitments at this time. On the minus, side, however, is the message a surrender like this sends out to the world. It is naive to think that our enemies, the Islamic terrorists will simply leave us alone once we pull out of Iraq. A surrender will be a sign of weakness in the eyes of the enemy and a sign of extreme irresponsibility in the eyes of our allies. America's credibility on the international stage will suffer a great blow.

Since we invaded because of WMD's, and found none, went in to get rid of saddam, and have done that, then wanted to help establish an Iraqi constitution and have also done that, exactly what are we surrendering? Bush claims to have no desire to permanently stay in Iraq anyway, so what are we surrending if we leave now?

[tinybear]

So you think the job is finished? That a stable democratic government has been established in Iraq?

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: tinybear So you think the job is finished? That a stable democratic government has been established in Iraq?

About as stable as it's ever going to be as long as U.S. troops remain in that country.

[Nono]

Quote by: tiny (...) the message a surrender like this sends out to the world. It is naive to think that our enemies, the Islamic terrorists will simply leave us alone once we pull out of Iraq. A surrender will be a sign of weakness in the eyes of the enemy and a sign of extreme irresponsibility in the eyes of our allies. America's credibility on the international stage will suffer a great blow.

What you've done over the past three years has totally ruined your image worldwide -- your name is mud. And the Islamo-fascists are getting non-stop laughs watching you thrash about in Iraq.

How could withdrawal (an intelligent withdrawal, not a headlong one) possibly make things worse?

[tinybear]

Oh things just might get worse. Our enemies will see to that once we surrender.

[Scribbler1]

Let's see, they are killing our people on a regular basis and they are slaughtering each other wholesale, even WITH us there. So how much worse can it get?

Since you seem so knowledgeable about this Tiny, how would YOU fix things?

[Nono]

Yes, tiny, for once in your wee ursine life, write a substantial post with real arguments and entirely free of sweeping delarations.
Dare ya.

[jose]

Quote by: tinybear Oh things just might get worse. Our enemies will see to that once we surrender.

tactical withdrawl is not the same as surrender, but defeat is just that, your enemies will be bolder and things may well get worse, how badly do you want to run Iraq? how many soldiers killed is enough of a bad plan getting worse?

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: tinybear OK, at least you have the courage to admit it's a surrender. That's a start. There are pros and cons about a surrender. On the plus side, we get our boys back home and out of harm's way. We also get the opportunity of saving ourselves lots of money and of repairing our damaged economy. The Bush administration has not been spending prudently and there's a lot to be said for allowing America a reprieve from massive financial commitments at this time. On the minus, side, however, is the message a surrender like this sends out to the world. It is naive to think that our enemies, the Islamic terrorists will simply leave us alone once we pull out of Iraq. A surrender will be a sign of weakness in the eyes of the enemy and a sign of extreme irresponsibility in the eyes of our allies. America's credibility on the international stage will suffer a great blow.

Hah! We have no credibility now; ask Condoleezza.
Our enemies do not give a rat's ass how weak we are. They are not a sovereign nation seeking a definite goal; they are terrorists. Aren't the conservative hawks the ones arguing that the terrorists want to wipe out all American life? If true, this means that they will continue to target us no matter what we do, or where we are. The idea that our military should remain in Iraq to draw the attacks there is ridiculous; if they were not there, they would not be attacked, and considering how many attacks we have suffered in the U.S. since 9/11, there will not be a huge upswing in attacks here.
We will get attacked here. There is no way around that. If they attacked us once, they will do it again; that's what it means to have fanatics for enemies. We cannot kill all of our enemies without killing everyone, everywhere. One man in the UK, with the right connections, could just as easily drop a dirty bomb in NYC as one man in Iraq; easier, since the Brit wouldn't get profiled coming on the plane.
The reality is, the longer we stay in Iraq, the more enemies we make. If we surrender, and capitulate completely in Iraq, perhaps the fanatics will target someone else.
So which would you prefer? People keep killing us, or start killing someone else?

[Boetie]

Surrender is just a word made up by the Bush Jr administration to keep this illegal war going. The truth is the country was lied into this war. When you are lied into a war and you realize it, it is not surrendering when you get out of the mess, it is correcting your ways.

The only thing that is getting killed over there is innocent citizens of Iraq and American soldiers that should not be there. This is not a win or lose situtation, it's called a stupid situation, meaninless and serves no purpose other than mindless killings.

If anything is to be labeled win or lose, that would be as long as Bush Jr stays in office We the People of America lose.

The whole idiotic Iraq war is just a personal agena of the PNAC, which is an oraganization with fostering imperalism ideology. Ten members infiltrated the United States. They have hijacked this country and allowed 911 to happen in order to use that as a pretext to drag the United States via lies and hype into an unnnecessary war.

Surrender, nope just another Bush Jr bullshit.

[jose]

Quote by: Boetie The whole idiotic Iraq war is just a personal agena of the PNAC, which is an oraganization with fostering imperalism ideology. Ten members infiltrated the United States. They have hijacked this country and allowed 911 to happen in order to use that as a pretext to drag the United States via lies and hype into an unnnecessary war. .

Boetie you must be a carpenter ´cos you hit that nail squarly on the head :)