'Al-Qaeda' claims Jordan attacks

[Chris the Chees]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4423714.stm

Al-Qaeda in Iraq carried out the triple bomb attack which killed at least 57 people in Jordan's capital Amman, a statement posted on the internet says. Jordan's Deputy Prime Minister, Marwan Muasher, had said earlier that al-Qaeda in Iraq was a "prime suspect". At least 300 people, mostly Jordanians, were injured in the blasts at the Grand Hyatt, Radisson and Days Inn hotels. Most of the dead were also Jordanians, but many foreign nationals also died, according to the authorities.

[Boetie]

What I find interesting is that before 911 I went to government web sites where they posted findings and analysis on terrorists groups going as far back as the Ronald Raygun era. Al-Qaeda was just one of many and wasn't even considered as threatening as many of the others. Now it just seems as if they are the only terrorist group existing. Other than maybe the Hamas, but many may consider Hamas as freedom fighters.

The point is could it be that this magical disapperance of other groups and the impression that there is only this one group Al-Qaeda be a play on the public from the same group that lied us into this war.

As long as this administration keep the same stuck record line, it makes it seem as if they are doing something and don't forget to roll up your sleeve.

[Sonart]

Quote by: Boetie What I find interesting is that before 911 I went to government web sites where they posted findings and analysis on terrorists groups going as far back as the Ronald Raygun era. Al-Qaeda was just one of many and wasn't even considered as threatening as many of the others. Now it just seems as if they are the only terrorist group existing. Other than maybe the Hamas, but many may consider Hamas as freedom fighters. The point is could it be that this magical disapperance of other groups and the impression that there is only this one group Al-Qaeda be a play on the public from the same group that lied us into this war.

I don't think there's anything magical about it, Boetie. Previous terrorist groups -- some which still exist - Hamas, Hezbollah -- some which don't - Black September, etc. -- were mostly focused on the Palestinian issue. And the entire terrorism process was evolving. The Munich Olympics was a HUGE affair at the time, but in the scheme of things, the kidnapping and death of a dozen Israeli athletes, while certainly brazan, doesn't compare to the devastation of modern attacks. Likewise the common practice of airline hijacking back in the '70s and '80s. In many ways, the very regularity of terrorist hijackings in part led to the devastation on 9/11. Passengers were reassured that these were just simple hijackings, like so many before, and they shouldn't resist... so they didn't. Not until passengers on flight 93 got wind of the WTC attacks did anyone react otherwise.

Again, the point being that pre-al-Qaeda terrorist groups and their attacks were all foused on the Palestinian issue, against Israel. The emergence of al-Qaeda was the first terrorist organization with goals on a global scale, attacking OUR interests and then only slowly at first. They emerged from the Afghan war against the Soviets believing for the first time that such an organization could defeat a super-power. And their transformation didn't happen overnight... there was a series of attacks throughout the '90's, each becoming a bit more ambitious, until they caught us off guard on 9/11.

Our invasion of Afghanistan briefly disrupted al-Qaeda, forcing them to evolve and reorganize, but with their massive new real-world training complex in Iraq, they are once again carrying out attacks globally, mostly against our allies.... Britain, Spain, Saudi Arabia and now Jordon.

Quote by: boetie Other than maybe the Hamas, but many may consider Hamas as freedom fighters.

A few million Palestinians, that's who. So many that Hamas is now a significant political presence, as well as a terrorist one.

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[bishop]

this response from someone in lebanon is very on point imo.. (grabbed this from the bbc)

My thoughts are with the wounded and with the families of victims. I hope this tragedy would convince my Arab fellows of the identity of the perpetrators: criminals whenever they are, in Iraq, in Bali, in Sinai, in Israel. Criminals are those who attack peaceful civilians in markets, schools, weddings. Criminals are the people who send them and those who give them the ideological justification for their acts. It is urgent for the religious authority of Islam to give a strong statement and sustain actions against the whole process that produces suicide bombers ready to commit blind killing. Otherwise, it is useless to continue claiming that there is no connection between terrorism and Islam. Chadi, Lebanon

[rmnunez]

Critical lefties will have you know OBL and Al Qaeda are as fictitious as the aim to end terror in Bushian machinations. They tell us too many of OBL's "lieutenants" or close associates have been announced captured or killed, that the US military is more than capable of erradicating every last one of these terrorists wherever they hide, that force is intentionally held back by Bush and his evil war-profiteering cabineteers. Zarqawi is said to be a character concocted by the CIA and there is no such thing as Al Qaeda. What the US media describes as "Al Qaeda" is actually the legitimate venting of frustration over patently wrongful US foreign policy across the Muslim world.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: bishop It is urgent for the religious authority of Islam to give a strong statement and sustain actions against the whole process that produces suicide bombers ready to commit blind killing.

Then isn't it equally urgent that the various brands of religion in the U.S. also speak out against the whole process that allows the dropping of 500 pound bombs in residential zones in Iraq? Some have already been threatened with the loss of their tax-exempt status if they do.

[bishop]

yes, but not in the same sense... islamic terrorism isn't a product of christian fundamentalists. it's a product of islamic fundamentalism.. islamic mullahs indoctrinate people that it's okay to kill innocents in the name of their perverted cause. i loathe dipshits like jerry fallwell and pat robertson, but to the best of my knowledge, they haven't been real contributors to islamic terrorism - aside from saying things that piss them off. of course, beauty pageants and critical books piss these people off just the same.


the terrorists wanted to tap into their region's dislike of their unelected leaders - hoping to pose as their heros who will lead them into a better future.. the response after the bombing in jordan shows me that perhaps muslims are ready to visibly work to get their house in order. it's an easy scapegoat to say that all terrorism happens because of our policies - especially since it ignores all the ignorance and inhumanity that is prevalent in the islamic world. they really are living in the dark ages these days.. and if their society's leaders (the clerics/mullahs) were to visibly voice their disapproval against the terrorists' actions and ideology, what a blow that would be to al qaeda's mission..

perhaps it could even be so great as to cause some real divides in the organization.. imagine seeing zawahiri's group go to war with zarqawi's...

hell. even regionally this has some significance.. imagine jordanians and israelis sharing something in common...

[bishop]

but alas... i got my hopes up reading that quote.. it'll take a lot of work to eliminate this sort of ignorance:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/...sts/index.html

"Oh my God! Oh my God! Is it possible that Arabs are killing Arabs, Muslims killing Muslims? For what did they do that?" screamed 35-year-old Najah Akhras, who lost two nieces in the attack.

i.e. muslims can't kill muslims, but it's all good if they kill jews or "the infidel"...

and no shit.. muslims killing muslims.. who would've thought that could happen?

[Sonart]

Quote by: rmnunez Critical lefties will have you know OBL and Al Qaeda are as fictitious as the aim to end terror in Bushian machinations.

Critical lefties??? Like who?

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[Zeebadee]

Quote by: bishop yes, but not in the same sense... islamic terrorism isn't a product of christian fundamentalists. it's a product of islamic fundamentalism.. islamic mullahs indoctrinate people that it's okay to kill innocents in the name of their perverted cause. i loathe dipshits like jerry fallwell and pat robertson, but to the best of my knowledge, they haven't been real contributors to islamic terrorism - aside from saying things that piss them off. of course, beauty pageants and critical books piss these people off just the same.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. What I meant was that organized religion here in the U.S. should be speaking out against some of our military policies as much as Islamic clergy are expected to be opposing Islamic terrorist policies. Unfortunately, if they do, they are threatened with the loss of their tax exempt status. Perhaps the Islamic clergy is laboring under similar restrictions.

[rmnunez]

organized religion here in the U.S. should be speaking out against some of our military policies as much as Islamic clergy are expected to be opposing Islamic terrorist policies.

Yes, things would be nicely simetric then. But for the analogy to be accurate we'd need to find the best and brightest of US youth lining up to volunteer for their patriotic duty slaughtering infidels. Then I'd be worried if I didn't hear some critical clergy.

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: rmnunez Yes, things would be nicely simetric then. But for the analogy to be accurate we'd need to find the best and brightest of US youth lining up to volunteer for their patriotic duty slaughtering infidels. Then I'd be worried if I didn't hear some critical clergy.

How about having the brightest and best of U.S. youth drop a 500 pound bomb on an apartment building in a populated neighborhood because there's a sniper in it? Does it matter to the civilian dead that they weren't the primary target?

[rmnunez]

Proportionality in war is another and quite different issue Zee. Is a 500 lb bomb to clear a sniper in an apartment block US military s.o.p.? I'd imagine it could happen, but has it or does it often? The military is a highly compartmentalized effort and it could well be the bomb launcher doesn't know of the target (such a bomb would likely have a huge burst radius and require some distance from its target). Weapons are used by the military in an evolving situation, a sniper may move, also could pose a threat disproportionate to the caliber of his ammunition, military targets of high value could enter the sniper's field. The Geneva Convetions and such regulate the proportionality of force that can be used when an enemy uses a civilian structure or civilians to shield himself, some force is allowed but I'd expect a 500 lb bomb would be excessive -unless nobody was home except the sniper. The Conventions do not confer some sort of civilian immunity from danger in war, not even in theory.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: rmnunez Proportionality in war is another and quite different issue Zee. Is a 500 lb bomb to clear a sniper in an apartment block US military s.o.p.? I'd imagine it could happen, but has it or does it often? The military is a highly compartmentalized effort and it could well be the bomb launcher doesn't know of the target (such a bomb would likely have a huge burst radius and require some distance from its target). Weapons are used by the military in an evolving situation, a sniper may move, also could pose a threat disproportionate to the caliber of his ammunition, military targets of high value could enter the sniper's field. The Geneva Convetions and such regulate the proportionality of force that can be used when an enemy uses a civilian structure or civilians to shield himself, some force is allowed but I'd expect a 500 lb bomb would be excessive -unless nobody was home except the sniper. The Conventions do not confer some sort of civilian immunity from danger in war, not even in theory.

A lovely disputation, sir. But I think you are clouding the issue, rather than responding to Zeebadee's original point, which is: Christian men are going to the Middle East with the intention of destroying enemies of the faith; the most common language I hear is that the Muslim fundamentalists/extremists/jihadists have as their avowed goal to wipe all Americans from the face of the Earth, and are told by their leaders that they may go to paradise if they die in service of this cause. The response of these men, who are inded told this by their priests, their ministers and their leaders, is to join the military in the hopes of killing every one of America's (read "Christianity's") enemies, because they believe that the Muslims will not stop until they are dead, or we are.
These men -- not the majority, certainly -- are the equivalent of Muslim fundamentalists. They do not use terrorist tactics, not because they wouldn't, but because they do not need to. They have the weapons of the U.S. military to do their killing.
Now: if the mullahs and clerics should be taken to task for encouraging Muslim fanatics, shouldn't our Christian ministers/priests/leaders suffer the samme reprobation? The same punishment, should it come to that? You are right that American codes of war and such are a secondary issue, but I do not think you have responded fairly to the original issue. Will you?

Forgive me if I'm toe-treading, Zeebadee.. Feel free to shut me up, if I'm in your way.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: rmnunez Yes, things would be nicely simetric then. But for the analogy to be accurate we'd need to find the best and brightest of US youth lining up to volunteer for their patriotic duty slaughtering infidels. Then I'd be worried if I didn't hear some critical clergy.

To answer this, where are our "best and brightest" if not volunteering for the military, at least some of them? Do you not think volunteers for the military are joining up to do their patriotic duty? Or that they are aware that that duty will include the slaughter of infidels?

[Zeebadee]

Thank you, Saint. I think you put it very nicely.

[jose]

The whole Palestinian "Security-Elite" has been terminated in yesterday's blasts of Jordanian's capital Amman. Besides the commander of the Palestinian Special Forces, Bashir Nafeh, Jihad Fatouh, the commercial attache at the Palestinian Embassy in Cairo, and Mosab Khorma, deputy Chairman of Cairo-Amman Bank in the Palestinian territories and Col. Abed Allun, another high-ranking Preventive Security forces official, were also killed in the three nearly simultaneous suicide bombings on American-owned hotels... oh dear does that count as an own goal?

[Walmas]

I think alot of the claimed attacks are really just al queda being cocky. When al queda says they bombed a place it really helps the terrorist group that actually was bombed. It probobly is a pain for all these evil groups to aviod the international communtitys so it is easier if al queda takes credit.