Sheehan Arrested Outside White House

[RickSp]

I have a lot more confidence in Cindy than in these scoundrels and prevaricators:

Every day Saddam remains in power with chemical weapons, biological weapons, and the development of nuclear weapons is a day of danger for the United States. Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-CT, September 4, 2002 Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. Dick Cheney August 26, 2002 If we wait for the danger to become clear, it could be too late. Sen. Joseph Biden D-Del., September 4, 2002 Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons. George W. Bush September 12, 2002 If he declares he has none, then we will know that Saddam Hussein is once again misleading the world. Ari Fleischer December 2, 2002 Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. George W. Bush January 28, 2003 We know that Saddam Hussein is determined to keep his weapons of mass destruction, is determined to make more. Colin Powell February 5, 2003 Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations. Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, February 5, 2003 We have sources that tell us that Saddam Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical weapons -- the very weapons the dictator tells us he does not have. George Bush February 8, 2003 We are asked to accept Saddam decided to destroy those weapons. I say that such a claim is palpably absurd. Tony Blair, Prime Minister 18 March, 2003 We know where they are. They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad. Donald Rumsfeld March 30, 2003 For bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction (as justification for invading Iraq) because it was the one reason everyone could agree on. Paul Wolfowitz May 28, 2003

Weapons of Mass Destruction:Who Said What When

[Irene]

What others say elsewhere really doesn't matter here

Maybe you misunderstood my post. All of those statements that I posted were made by Cindy Sheehan herself. You said she was a great woman, the likes of MLK JR and others and I am asking if you agree with all of those statements that she made? Especially the first one?

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Irene Are these the statements that those of you who support Cindy Sheehan stand by????? :eek:

Simply put, no, they are not. You are making the classic "you're all alike" mistake, if it indeed IS a mistake. It's like saying anyone who doesn't support Bush is a Democrat, a Liberal or both. And I HAVE heard that crap from the right, as well as ayone who doesn't support Bush and the war is a traitor who happily awaits the fall of America.
Plenty of slogans on both sides.

[Jack]

My mistake, sorry.

[Irene]

"I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out. "

Quote by JOHN KERRY.
I noticed that Rsp only listed 1 democrat on his list

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Irene "I have said publicly for years that weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein pose a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. Saddam Hussein's record bears this out. " Quote by JOHN KERRY. I noticed that Rsp only listed 1 democrat on his list

So Kerry saying that means Bush is right? There are a lot of people who don't have much use for Kerry either and that in no way validates Bush for anything.

And all that means is Kerry changed his mind. People often do that when they realize they are wrong.

And BTW, there are TWO Democrats on the list, Biden and Clinton.

[Livemike]

Quote by: xyzer Are you serious? The majority of both Congressional Houses voted for an invasion did they not? This was before the fact. Thats how you and I vote for or against war or anything else is it not? If you concede the point then make tracks to the ballot box next time and or write you congressperson with you complaints. Our President is not a war monger he is a perceptive guy who sees the only way to fight international terrorism is to mount a real offense against it.

Then why hasn't he? He hasn't gone after the Saudi connection (which is far stronger than the Afghan one), he hasn't destoyed their financing by ending the war on drugs, he hasn't fired those responsible for americas dismal state of readiness for 9/11, he has fired those who warn him of problems. This last is the worst thing you can do in a "war" like this. Iraq is not a "real offense" against terrorism, it's helped terrorism.

Quote by: xyzer In this case he wanted to stabilize the middle east and, send a warning to nations harboring terrorists;to act rather than posture and talk as his predecessor did.

And how "stable" is the middle east now?

Quote by: xyzer Public opinion is largely created by the press and media in this country. They also create the polls which allegedly reflect public opinion.In fact they reflect the responses to carefully constructed questions sometimes designed to elicit answers the pollster desires. If you are so easily duped by the inflation of the responses to questions you're not privy to, thats your prioblem and I can't help you. Cindy Sheehan is a dupe and pawn of the extreme left! Her rallies are attended by communists like Ramsey Clark and racist communists like Cynthia McKinney, as well as political opportunists and blackmailers like Jessie Jackson..plus a bunch of impatient people who firgure a war has to run like a TV program with a fixed time frame. They are funded by the the Democrat moneyman Soros.

Notice how Cindy is described as a "dupe" without showing any evidence that
anything she says is wrong. In fact the criticism of her never focuses on what
she says but on who she is and who supports her. The fact that idiots like
McKinney and Jackson support her doesn't affect the validity of her position. The
right resorts to ad hominem attacks because lets face it they have nothing else.

Quote by: xyzer Cindy Sheehan didn't even raise her unfortunately deceased son! He was raised by his father and stepmother and he was an adult who VOLUNTEERED to serve his country. She may morn him but she isn't representing his chosen path...to fight for his country wherever and whenever required.

But he was not required to fight for his country. He would still have had his country if
he had not fought. The country was not served in any way by his or any of his comrades fighting.

[Livemike]

Quote by: xyzer An explanation is needed as to how this ?great lady ? will help bring an end to this occupation and rebuilding event in the Iraqi conflict? Got one? We already won the war inspite of what you read in the press! It amuses me how expert our citizenry is becoming on how to fight a war and accomplish a mission that their representatives voted for. I can remember all the experts saying we were moving to slow, allowing museums to be ransacked, bypassing ammo dumps, stretching our supply lines too far, couldn't catch Saddam, too few troop[s to accomplish the mission, ad nasueam. inexpert tripe and news catching nonsense!

And aside from catching Saddam (after he became irrevelent) what were they wrong
about? If you're "winning" this war I'd hate to see what losing looks like. Already you've
given political legitimacy to someone who killed your troops (al-Sadr), abandoned the
roads as supply lines forcing you to rely on more expensive air transport, allowed
pro-Iranian forces to win the election, failed to get the oil infrastructure working again,
destroyed large parts of cities and thereby alienated their populations, set up an Iranian
spy as prefered leader of the country (Challabi), and allowed Shite militia with links to
the anti-US Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq to take over whole
suburbs, all the while destorying your "liberal democratic" credentials by imprisoning
without charge and torturing innocent people. What exactly can you point to as a sign
you are winning let alone have won?

[Livemike]

Quote by: xyzer Yes I am a dupe I guess because I served my country in combat in three wars during the last century. WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. I volunteered, and though I saw flaws in our involvement in Korea and Vietnam it was my job just as Cindy's son felt it was his jov to serve without complaint. I felt we military participats deserved support!

When you say you "saw flaws" what do you mean exactly? Do you mean that you thought those wars were wrong? Then how can it be your job to "serve without complaint"? Your job a citizen is to complain when your government does something wrong, for the sake of all the other citizens. Why do you think that you deserve support for something even you think was flawed?

Quote by: xyzer To me patriotism is supporting the decisions of ones representatives in Congress and the Presidency.

Well you're wrong. Patriotism is love of your country, not what your
countries representatives are doing. If they started murdering Jews would it be
"patriotic" to support that? If so thank god I'm not a "patriot". It is patriotic to
do what is best for the country not to support the decisions of one's
"representatives" or presidents. If the decisions of these are what is best for
the country then there is no conflict. To support a decision that is bad for the
country merely because it's a decision of someone you voted for (or didn't) is
the antithesis of patriotism.

Quote by: xyzer I also feel that the military forces, actually fighting and occupying Iraq, are the experts and this antiwar nonsense, generated by people who don't know whats really going on, is harmful to the morale of those in harms way.

The "experts" are the ones that told us the war was a bad idea in the first place.
As for "nonsense" if it is then refute it. The morale of those in harm's way need not
concern us. We should not frame the debate to exclude harming their feelings any
more than we should frame the affirmative action debate to not upset blacks or the
"Intelligent Design" debate to not offend christians.

Quote by: xyzer Impatient people ignorant in the ways of war, should follow the rule of law and use the ballot box rather than demonstrating in an attempt to get others to feel as they do.

What did Cindy do that was a threat to the "rule of law"? Far less than the administration did by arbitrary detention and torture.

Quote by: xyzer I resent those who use unsulting language (war mongers) to try to make their points. I suggest you fit that mould and also suggest you don't know what you are demonstrating about!

Well what else is Bush if not a war monger? Did he not sell a war? Deceptively too!

[Zeebadee]

Quote by: xyzer Are you serious? The majority of both Congressional Houses voted for an invasion did they not? This was before the fact. Thats how you and I vote for or against war or anything else is it not?.

No, they did not. Congress abdicated it's responsibility as outlined in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11 of the Constitution ("The Congress shall have Power ... To Declare War."). Instead, in order to avoid any member being held accountable for a declaration of war, they passed the October 2002 Resolution, House Joint Resolution 114, which authorizes the President to "use the Armed Forces" for national security and to enforce U.N. resolutions. Bush then started the war by his own decision. Bush then went to Congress for funds to fight the war. Again abdicating their responsibility, congress gave him a blank check, after all, which member of congress would want to go on record as not supporting troops that were already in combat due to their own dereliction of duty?

Until we get politicians that act in the best interests of the country instead of their continuing reelections, we're going to get the worst from our "leaders".

"Congress has not asserted its authority to declare war for over half a century, leaving the president solely in control of war powers to the detriment of our democracy and in clear violation of the Constitution." (http://historynewsnetwork.org/articles/950.html)

[RickSp]

Quote by: Irene I noticed that Rsp only listed 1 democrat on his list

So is that what you noticed? Clinton, Biden and Lieberman are all Democrats. Excluding appointed officials, the only other two elected officials I quoted were Bush and Cheney, so as far as quoting American elected politicians, the Democrats out number the Republicans.

To answer your previous question, I do not agree with everything Sheehan has said, but I don't need to. She has given a voice to the millions of Americans, roughly 60% depending on which polls you read, who want to support our troops by bringing then home.

[tinybear]

Did Cindy Sheehan commit any crime outside the White House? Was she obstructing traffic? Causing a public disorder? What was she arrested for?

[RickSp]

Quote by: tinybear Did Cindy Sheehan commit any crime outside the White House? Was she obstructing traffic? Causing a public disorder? What was she arrested for?

She and a hundred or so others were arrested for demonstrating without a permit - a $50 fine.

[Irene]

Quote by: Livemike In fact the criticism of her never focuses on what she says but on who she is and who supports her. The fact that idiots like McKinney and Jackson support her doesn't affect the validity of her position.

Please see post # 19

"America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for..."

"They're not waging a War on Terror but a War of Terror. The biggest terrorist is George W. Bush."
"My son joined the army to protect America, not Israel."
"You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine and you'll stop the terrorism."
"Thank God for the Internet, or we wouldn't know anything, and we would already be a fascist state."
"George Bush needs to stop talking, admit the mistakes of his all around failed administration, pull our troops out of occupied New Orleans."
"We have this lying bastard, George Bush, taking a 5-week vacation in a time of war."

We do indeed focus on what SHE says and it effects your credibility when you surround yourself with "idiots"

[PatrickHenry]

Gosh, Irene! Cindy is saying what a lot of America is thinking and you are lableling her uttrances extreme? You need to go back to O'Reilly or Rush. Cindy is telling it like it is...

[RickSp]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Gosh, Irene! Cindy is saying what a lot of America is thinking and you are lableling her uttrances extreme? You need to go back to O'Reilly or Rush. Cindy is telling it like it is...

Most of what Cindy says is true. Quite a constrast from Bush and the politicians on both sides of the aisle.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: xyzer Are you serious? The majority of both Congressional Houses voted for an invasion did they not? This was before the fact. Thats how you and I vote for or against war or anything else is it not? If you concede the point then make tracks to the ballot box next time and or write you congressperson with you complaints.

I cannot speak for others, but I personally have not voted since I became eligible to vote at 18. You will probably say that, since I have not voted, I have no right to complain about what goes on in the government. Well, just try and shut me up.

If you'd like to know why I haven't voted yet, I'd be happy to tell you.

Quote by: xyzer Our President is not a war monger he is a perceptive guy who sees the only way to fight international terrorism is to mount a real offense against it. In this case he wanted to stabilize the middle east and, send a warning to nations harboring terrorists; to act rather than posture and talk as his predecessor did.

What's interesting is that there is far more terrorism in Iraq post-invasion than pre-invasion. As far as I know, there was no terrorism in Iraq prior to the US military invasion (although one could call Saddam's heinous acts a form of terrorism).

Quote by: xyzer Public opinion is largely created by the press and media in this country. They also create the polls which allegedly reflect public opinion.In fact they reflect the responses to carefully constructed questions sometimes designed to elicit answers the pollster desires. If you are so easily duped by the inflation of the responses to questions you're not privy to, thats your prioblem and I can't help you.

That almost begs the question of who is privy to what, and who says?

Quote by: xyzer Cindy Sheehan is a dupe and pawn of the extreme left! Her rallies are attended by communists like Ramsey Clark and racist communists like Cynthia McKinney, as well as political opportunists and blackmailers like Jessie Jackson..plus a bunch of impatient people who firgure a war has to run like a TV program with a fixed time frame. They are funded by the the Democrat moneyman Soros.

There are also many people, such as myself, who are not leftists, yet who never wanted this "war" to happen in the first place.

Quote by: xyzer Cindy Sheehan didn't even raise her unfortunately deceased son! He was raised by his father and stepmother and he was an adult who VOLUNTEERED to serve his country. She may morn him but she isn't representing his chosen path...to fight for his country wherever and whenever required.

If that is true, then you can provide sources to prove it. Most claims are not taken at face value around here.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: xyzer Yes I am a dupe I guess because I served my country in combat in three wars during the last century. WW2, Korea, and Vietnam.

So you're, what, 80 or so?

Quote by: xyzer I volunteered, and though I saw flaws in our involvement in Korea and Vietnam it was my job just as Cindy's son felt it was his jov [sic!]to serve without complaint. I felt we military participats deserved support!

All I can say is that I disagree with the attitude that one must "serve without complaint".

Quote by: xyzer To me patriotism is supporting the decisions of ones representatives in Congress and the Presidency.

Right or wrong? If so, then I am no patriot.

Quote by: xyzer I also feel that the military forces, actually fighting and occupying Iraq, are the experts and this antiwar nonsense, generated by people who don't know whats really going on, is harmful to the morale of those in harms way. Impatient people ignorant in the ways of war, should follow the rule of law and use the ballot box rather than demonstrating in an attempt to get others to feel as they do. I resent those who use unsulting language (war mongers)to try to make their points. I suggest you fit that mould and also suggest you don't know what you are demonstrating about!

It's difficult to express your real choices through voting when only two candidates appear on the ballot.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Isherwood I'm still proud of having fought in an effort to preserve the freedom to protest openly and without fear in this country.

With all due respect, Isherwood (and I do mean that), when were there any Vietnamese attempting to invade the United States and prevent people from protesting?

- Rob

[tinybear]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Gosh, Irene! Cindy is saying what a lot of America is thinking and you are lableling her uttrances extreme? You need to go back to O'Reilly or Rush. Cindy is telling it like it is...

She's saying what a lot of America is thinking? Are you sure?